Job Discussion Forums

Dream_Seller · Joined: 01 Feb 2014 Posts: 78 Location: China

In a previous post I asked about the value of the work permit but in the end after having one I find it does not benefit me personally. Where are places I can work part time without one? Also, I don't expect to be treated with Love. The classroom is actually refreshing to me.

RustyShackleford · Joined: 13 May 2013 Posts: 449

There are lots of lower tier schools that will be more than happy to get a foreign part-timer. Keep in mind that your rights, such as they are in Vietnam already, will be limited in the case of any dispute. But you know that already.

kurtz · Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 518 Location: Phaic Tan

I am not sure anyone can provide a comprehensive list of places that don't require a work permit. Aren't all legitimate schools supposed to have their teachers armed with a valid work permit?

I have always had a valid work permit. Even though it has never affected me personally, professionally it has in several ways such as always having a decent rate of pay, never having to do a visa run, having the law on my side if something illegal was to happen and working for good schools that provide personal development sessions.

This has been my experience living and working in Asia for ten years. Maybe this is why I haven't had any work nightmare stories like I read on these forums.

Dreamseller, aim for bottom feeder work teaching YL some groovy dance routines at $10 an hour and you might find they don't require a WP.

Dream_Seller · Joined: 01 Feb 2014 Posts: 78 Location: China

Well in my opinion I have no rights in Vietnam. The work permit benefits the employer more than the employee. I also have meet teachers that have worked at several schools all at once. So most part timers do work at several schools and they are not pushed to get work permits. Also some so called legitimate schools have the employee pay for the work permit paperwork and all the mumbo-jumbo first and then after a year you get reimbursed. Now after a year you might not like working there. So guess what, you got to do the whole process again for the next company.

The work permit does not provide me any type of stability. But I can see that if you have been teaching in ASIA over 10 years you might be an employer or at least a hiring manager by now. I was hoping people would chime in and say oh I worked at British Council and ILA and Wall Street at the same time and didn't have a work permit.

Managers don't have my best interest at heart and I think this site doesn't have a lot of newcomers. Most seem to teach here 1 year and then leave. It has been hard to live here, much more so than I expected but I am doing alright.

kurtz · Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 518 Location: Phaic Tan

Dreamseller,

Not everyone with 10 years up the sleeve is in recruitment or a manager. I have had the opportunity for the former, but I declined the offer.

You seem to be having a tough time of things and I am sorry about that. I've said many times EFL in Vietnam is a bit of a joke. However, there are some large mills that do all the legwork for you. I would only recommend working for one of those places. If you don't, well, one has to jump through all those hoops and spend all that money or do visa runs. I doubt that sounds particularly appealing to professional teachers.

I hope you have an escape plan as I see burnout approaching.

All the best.

skarper · Joined: 12 Oct 2006 Posts: 477

I heartily recommend people don't get into an argument about this.

Plenty of people work in numerous places without any kind of work permit. Just business visas and sometimes only tourist visas. This is illegal and the teacher runs considerable risks. Some do this for years without any trouble though. This is I think common knowledge.

There are a lot of course who have a good gig at a high end employer and are happy to work there with a work permit and residence card etc. It is better for them but wouldn't suit everyone.

Vietnam has a chaotic visa/work permit system. They could fix it if they wanted to but obviously do not want to. It works for them this way - and it can work for the teachers too. For a while anyway.

It really depends what you want.

I don't think you'll get any work at the British Council - they are choosy. ILA maybe. Does Wall Street exist here yet? Maybe in Hanoi.

Mostly you'll work at places no one has heard of. Often you'll be the only foreigner. Usually part time. Expect chaotic management practices, scant resources, mixed levels.

Over time you will earn your stripes and work up to mediocre places. In time maybe to the higher end. It takes time. Few give it the time. It also takes a certain basic minimum in qualifications and the right attitude.

ExpatLuke · Joined: 11 Feb 2012 Posts: 744

skarper · Joined: 12 Oct 2006 Posts: 477

I don't think it's a moral issue at all [- leaving aside that no Vietnamese person can be an NEST anyway].

It might be unwise to work illegally. But it's not immoral. The laws are a mess and this is deliberate policy.

If they cracked down and enforced the work permit laws there wouldn't be enough teachers in Vietnam. Many schools can't afford to employ a teacher full time but need 3-4 teachers during peak hours. The industry is based on this floating pool of part timers. VERY few Vietnamese can afford the fees at the BC or similar level operations.

I would favour of a new, coherent visa/work permit system. Basically teachers would be responsible for their own paperwork and if they are qualified and have no criminal record they are allowed to work for any number of employers including privately. They then have to declare income and pay tax in order to renew their WP.

This would benefit teachers and students but not employers...ergo it won't happen.

The very top tier of schools are pretty much all compliant with the law. The second tier are somewhat compliant - maybe 10-30% of their staff will be up to date on paperwork at any given time.

Below that maybe only the managers have their paperwork and the rest are not even in the process. Many employers don't even have foreign management.

The OP will be able to work without a WP but not at the best/better schools.

Dream_Seller · Joined: 01 Feb 2014 Posts: 78 Location: China

I don't want to stir things up as much as they already are. I appreciate everyone's thoughtful responses. I'm gonna do this for a year and consider after. I have more sanity working as much as I can for myself. Even if the big schools pay a little more, its not worth it for me. Things are done differently here. Even if you come with the best intentions (at least teaching-wise) it is a slimy business here.

kurtz · Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 518 Location: Phaic Tan

sigmoid · Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 1276

Dream_Seller · Joined: 01 Feb 2014 Posts: 78 Location: China

Yeah I am doing alright. I am too settled now to move to another place also but I wouldn't mind a smaller city. And kurtz, I don't regret moving here. I have met some who also had horrible high paying jobs in their Western countries. I'm invested in learning the language too which I have been since I have moved here. Even if the culture is tough and the business is shady its alright. I pretty much got all my questions answered by posters above. I have done my best to try to keep a balance while some of my friends have become company men. That's just not me.

LettersAthruZ · Joined: 25 Apr 2010 Posts: 466 Location: North Viet Nam

ExpatLuke · Joined: 11 Feb 2012 Posts: 744

You say that like paying bribes is the only way to go. It's not. And even if you do pay a bribe, its usually a 1 time bribe or a yearly bribe agreed upon between the school and their labor department contact. So they're already paying for their "processing fees" so all applicants will get the green light.

There are teachers who work illegally. No surprises about Hai Phong since it's the most corrupt city in the country. But I'm hearing more and more stories of people getting caught on this. Add that to the fact that visa runs get expensive... Work permit pays off.

I still hold the opinion that if youre comfortable working illegally in a country and not paying taxes, then you're lacking in moral conduct. I just hope you're not anti-immigration, or anti-illegal workers in your home country.

tideout · Joined: 05 Feb 2011 Posts: 213

The "system" has received some attention in this thread but I'm not sure it's hit the level it should.

I personally know four people in HCM right now who have taught ESL in country for times ranging from 1- 5 years, all of them with time at the "good' schools.

The four have potential work permits with a total of six different schools and all are horribly tied up with red tape. One of them has has worked for a "good" school for over two years and still can't get the school (or the system) to get the job done.

I'm not sure this has anything to do with many of the foreigner's applying for work. There's a toxic blend of corruption and hopeless incompetence in many instances (I'm not leaving the schools out of this either). Many teachers have wasted hundreds of dollars (or more) of their own $ and time just pushing the same rocks up the same hills for little in return.

It would be one thing if we were in S. Korea, which I'm familiar with, where an estimated 12,000 out of 30, 000 teachers work in the grey market in some manner or another (figures go back 4-5 years). There you have a legit system to go through. I never even left for there without a signed contract etc.. That's hardly the case here.

If anything needs to be looked at that contributes to foreigners not paying into the system then why not look at the system which fails so regularly in getting people into legit work permits?