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goodEnglishes
Joined: 19 May 2016
Posts: 30
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 Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:00 am Post subject: Job hunting tesol.org, etc. & most gigs don't post salar |
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| I can't be the only one who finds it annoying and off-putting, if not insulting, to come across job ad after job ad, even on majors sites like tesol.org and chronicle vitae and higher ed, and find that no salary range for the position is given? Aren't some of these schools/unis/companies shooting themselves in the foot because you have to go through so much leg work just to find out they're not offering to pay you enough beans? |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| goodEnglishes wrote: |
| Aren't some of these schools/unis/companies shooting themselves in the foot because you have to go through so much leg work just to find out they're not offering to pay you enough beans? |
Insulting? No. In fact, that's the norm for many jobs regardless of the industry.
Generally, TEFL ads that indicate a multitude of "must-haves" under requirements as well as "wish-list" items under desired/preferred qualifications can't realistically state a salary; there are too many variables to consider. Pay is determined based on how many boxes get ticked for a particular job candidate. On the other hand, employers mainly looking for teachers with a pulse usually show the salary or a pay range in their ads.
Reputable employers that don't indicate pay expect job seekers with solid qualifications and a serious interest in the position will respond; the lack of salary info isn't a deterrent. And frankly, it doesn't take much effort to send off a CV with anticipation of an interview. No legwork or psychic powers needed.  |
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Alien abductee
Joined: 08 Jun 2014
Posts: 527
Location: Kuala Lumpur
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Job hunting tesol.org, etc. & most gigs don't post s |
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| goodEnglishes wrote: |
| I can't be the only one who finds it annoying and off-putting, if not insulting, to come across job ad after job ad, even on majors sites like tesol.org and chronicle vitae and higher ed, and find that no salary range for the position is given? Aren't some of these schools/unis/companies shooting themselves in the foot because you have to go through so much leg work just to find out they're not offering to pay you enough beans? |
I don't find it annoying. For reasons already stated. |
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bograt
Joined: 12 Nov 2014
Posts: 331
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
. And frankly, it doesn't take much effort to send off a CV with anticipation of an interview. No legwork or psychic powers needed. Wink
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Fine, as long as they tell you the salary when they invite you for interview. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| bograt wrote: |
| Fine, as long as they tell you the salary when they invite you for interview. |
Possibly, if it's a one-size-fits-all salary for a position requiring very basic qualifications. However, in many situations, salary isn't discussed until the interview or days afterwards in the form of an offer. I'm sure culture also plays a part in how salary and job offers are discussed.
Additionally, the mention of pay can depend on whether additional crucial info is needed from the applicant. For example, I didn't know my salary for Saudi Arabia until I'd submitted further documentation after my interview, although I'd had a general idea of the salary range. In the Gulf, salaries for university direct-hire positions are usually calculated based on a number of factors, including employment verification letters/certificates from previous employers, especially if it's experience gained after one's qualifying degree. (Some Gulf employers will only consider the years of verified teaching experience gained post-MA TESOL.)
Salary expectations can be a touchy issue for some, including the OP. What they feel they're worth doesn't always jive with what prospective employers determine that number to be. And given that salaries haven't increased much, if at all, over the past 5+ years... That's the reality of it.
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CTravel32
Joined: 01 Mar 2017
Posts: 85
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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Disagree. That is why many employers mention a range. ¨Ÿou will be making between 30 and 40,000¨ for example. Mention the benefits.
In other words, be more straightforward, that way employees can decide right away if it is worth the time to apply and go through the entire interview process, which can be quite long. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| CTravel32 wrote: |
Disagree. That is why many employers mention a range. "You will be making between 30 and 40,000" for example. Mention the benefits.
In other words, be more straightforward, that way employees can decide right away if it is worth the time to apply and go through the entire interview process, which can be quite long. |
That sounds like excuse making. 
Seriously, it would take me less than 30 minutes to tweak and email my cover letter along with my two-page CV, copy of my pre-scanned diploma, and verified experience letters. Everything is updated, organized, and ready on my computer and on OneDrive.
The websites the OP mentioned are mostly for higher ed jobs, which generally pay more anyway. Plus, it's not hard to get an idea of where in the world the better salaries are as well as which types of positions and employers offer the best pay and packages. That's what the Cafe forums are for.
Passing on a posted position solely because the ad states "salary based on experience" or "competitive tax-free salary," may mean you miss out on an offer for a solid salary and/or bennies. Besides, some of those better employers don't often have openings.
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LarssonCrew
Joined: 06 Jun 2009
Posts: 1308
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:19 am Post subject: |
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But NS, there are alot of agencies that will low ball.
Many jobs lowball or, even if a range is stated, only offer the lowest.
What's the point of spending 30 minutes, and say, sending it to 5 or 6 people [3 hours] to then be told the job you suspected paid 20,000 SAR pays 8,000 and has terrible conditions? |
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Alien abductee
Joined: 08 Jun 2014
Posts: 527
Location: Kuala Lumpur
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:15 am Post subject: |
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| LarssonCrew wrote: |
But NS, there are alot of agencies that will low ball.
Many jobs lowball or, even if a range is stated, only offer the lowest.
What's the point of spending 30 minutes, and say, sending it to 5 or 6 people [3 hours] to then be told the job you suspected paid 20,000 SAR pays 8,000 and has terrible conditions? |
So they "low-ball" you and don't improve the offer. Then you do what normal people do: take right hand, click mouse and move to the next job ad. If you're trying to portray job hunting in the 21st century as an onerous task, you're failing. |
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HeidiHector
Joined: 10 May 2017
Posts: 36
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:22 am Post subject: |
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I usually apply to as many as I can in a certain locale and see what's going to be offered. This way, you will know what the "market rate" is because you have the real info when/if you are given an offer. To be honest, I think that it doesn't really take that much effort to revise my documents to fit the jobs that I am interested in anyway, so it's worth it just to apply.
And as NS said, many good schools don't have openings often. It sucks but sometimes it is better to simply get the job and then negotiate for a higher starting salary and/or argue for raises once you've become a part of the team. Also, a prestigious school will allow you to springboard the name to capture better-paying gigs (esp. private students), so it evens out in the end. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:49 am Post subject: |
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| LarssonCrew wrote: |
Many jobs lowball or, even if a range is stated, only offer the lowest.
What's the point of spending 30 minutes, and say, sending it to 5 or 6 people [3 hours] to then be told the job you suspected paid 20,000 SAR pays 8,000 and has terrible conditions? |
That's a different issue. You should be researching potential employers, preferably before firing off your CV. Too many job seekers (especially for Saudi Arabia) tend to focus only on the money and not on the employer's reputation, location of the worksite, visa type, etc. But if you have consistently received lowball offers, then either you're barely meeting the qualifications for the position, or you're only attracting the attention of the sketchiest companies looking for a warm body.
You sometimes have to kiss a lot of frogs in order to reveal the prince/princess. You just need to research the best ponds before puckering up.
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goodEnglishes
Joined: 19 May 2016
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:22 pm Post subject: Thank you for the comments! |
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| Thanks for the comments everyone! I was curious to see how many people would defend the status quo of TESOL employers not posting salary qualifications in advance. I am not aware to what extent this is also the norm in other fields as at least one user claimed. It seems to me that at least in other fields bargaining for a higher salary is more of a possibility than it seems to be ours. During TESOL International 2016, I interviewed with as many employers as I could and in terms of the KSA received two job offers from two different universities. The recruiters with one were so bad that I ended up ignoring their emails and the final job offer with the other one was too low for me... I had a figure in my mind of how low I was willing to go (salary-wise) to spend a year of my life in the KSA, and under $4,000 (even with the 2 months paid vacation, flight home/back for Xmas, etc.) was not acceptable to me. But amazingly, universities in the KSA routinely seem to be offering salaries that hover around $4,000 a month because there must be warm, qualified bodies to fill those roles... |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| goodEnglishes wrote: |
| Thanks for the comments everyone! I was curious to see how many people would defend the status quo of TESOL employers not posting salary qualifications in advance. I am not aware to what extent this is also the norm in other fields as at least one user claimed. It seems to me that at least in other fields bargaining for a higher salary is more of a possibility than it seems to be ours. |
I'm the one who posted that it isn't unusual for employers in other fields/sectors to not indicate salary in job ads. I've worked in every level of government in the US and was in corporate before changing careers to teaching and now training. Let's just say that sites like salary.com and payscale.com are popular. With TEFL, keep in mind that you're dealing with other cultures and their recruiting and hiring practices.
| and goodEnglishes wrote: |
| In terms of the KSA received two job offers from two different universities. The recruiters with one were so bad that I ended up ignoring their emails and the final job offer with the other one was too low for me... I had a figure in my mind of how low I was willing to go (salary-wise) to spend a year of my life in the KSA, and under $4,000 (even with the 2 months paid vacation, flight home/back for Xmas, etc.) was not acceptable to me. But amazingly, universities in the KSA routinely seem to be offering salaries that hover around $4,000 a month because there must be warm, qualified bodies to fill those roles... |
Salaries for direct-hire Saudi university positions vary based on the criteria I listed in my second post. (By the way, I managed KSA just fine as a single female.) And again, along with declining or stale salaries worldwide, the Gulf is experiencing a major oil slump. It's unrealistic to expect a mega salary unless you want to work as a trainer via a military contract.
Don't assume direct-hire uni positions are looking for warm, qualified bodies. They usually offer opportunities to work on committees, focus groups, etc., for teachers who show initiative. In my case, I was allowed a reduced teaching load in order to participate on committees for materials design and student extracurricular activities. I also mentored several Saudi pre-service teachers and led a couple of in-service workshops. This all went on my CV and subsequently, helped me land a contract for a unique State Department project. Not to get off topic, but this ties into your other thread about professional development. Moreover, don't focus only on pay -- whether it's posted or not. There are positions that provide opportunities that could potentially boost your career. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Bumping this salary-related thread. |
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LarssonCrew
Joined: 06 Jun 2009
Posts: 1308
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:10 am Post subject: |
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One thing I will say is that salaries in the ESL/Teaching abroad world seem to have the largest range I've ever seen.
When working in a law office there was a 'set' salary, take it or leave it. Sure, there were bonuses for profit sharing and overtime, plus other things like transport allowance, but everyone was generally making that same amount.
I see some ads that offer $1000-2000. How can the range be so extreme, I've never understood it. If the school say 'well very experienced teachers can earn $2000!' will they actually be looking for those people? |
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