Job Discussion Forums

[GONZALVESB]

I have another question, please. Who pays for the work visa and FE certificate?

[MyTurnNow]

Depends...varies from place to place. There is no standard national policy.

Really not picking on you, but based on history here I can't say it often or strongly enough: READ THE *BEEP*ING CONTRACT!!! Read it over and over again. Get to know it intimately. It's your best friend or your worst enemy...

The contract should have such basics stated within it. Of course, they ALL leave an agonizing amount of wiggle room and grey area to argue over, but they are the best place to start.

MT

[Roger]

I would be blasted if I was wrong - the work visa and related documents always are at your employer's expense, never at yours!
But, you must come to China on a tourist visa, which you buy with your own money, with no hope of refund.
It is possible that some schools try to make you pay - but it is not a regular feature of the labour market here!

[yaco]

I consider the respondents to GONZALVESB questions are a touch unfair.

Negotiating a contract and relying on Chinese employers adhering to the contract is a hard task.

Often we post diplomatic messages ' they will try to wriggle out of the contract " when in fact there is endemic dishonesty in this sector of Chinese society.

In my situation , I paid for my z class Visa which i obtained in Thailand. At no stage has the school offered to reimburse for this expense. I had my third medical examination, one in Australia, one in Thailand and one in China. After 12 days the school advised me I must pay for the medical examination. Of course I have refused. I have received my foreign experts certificate but still waiting for my residents permit. The school is likely to ask me to pay for these certificates !!!!

I received my first pay 7 days late after much badgering but 15 days later still awaiting a letter from the school allowing me to convert 70 % of my wages into foreign currency.

The school has renegotiated the contract 3 times in the space of 6 weeks.
They wished to change the following clause ' school to provide free electricity, gas and water' to ' school gives an allowance of 300rmb per month for gas, electricity and water ' This is unsuitable for several reasons

a) The school provided no information about the tariffs for utilities
b) The bills are issued in Chinese
c) I live in a cold part of China where heating is essential.
d) I would rather have a consistent income every month for budgetary purposes.
e) Who wishes to dispute bills every month

On the other hand the aprtment the school provided is beyond my expectations. I am being paid for a 16hr week contract although only working 12 hours per week. ( Have requested the additional hours ).

This is a small example of the issues confronting teachers ( especially first time teachers in China ) in China.

Any support we can offer teachers is highly regarded. Lets face it , if you are an experienced teacher in China you have a stronger bargaining position and are better knowledge of the Chinese way of completing business.

The most important issue for teachers in China is to have a regular monthly income that does not fluctuate. An individual can cope with different standards of accommodation or a boring environment but you do need money to survive in this world. The amount of problems concerning wages is far more prevalent in China than in other countries.

[GONZALVESB]

Was I suppose to read the contract to check whether I should pay for the z visa and FE certificate or was that just a comment since I don't seem to know my rights!!!! Well, as this is my first school and first time in this country I don't know my rights and I think someone (maybe from Foreign Affairs) should inform people of their rights, .... naive!!???? If they should pay for the FE I don't think you can trust the Foreign Affairs Officers either because these people asked me for the money in front of them. Anyway, I checked the contract and it does not mention anything about these documents or who is responsible for payment. By the way, they also made me pay for the medical.

Yes, I came on a Tourist visa. I was told by the officer processing the z visa that this should have been done in my country. I told him the Agent advised that it could be done here. He now wants me to believe that because he knows the Office Director of this school and they have a good relationship he will look at it favourably but if it was another school, I would have had major problems. Does it make sense??? Because from what I can gather, most of you got your z visa in China, is that not so??

[Paul G]

Gonzalves:

I think what you have to understand is that you are dealing with Chinese culture, not Chinese law. Here are a few concepts that you should familiarize yourself with.

1) Face - this is the most important aspect of Chinese culture, particularly to the Chinese. Face means never admitting that you are wrong and never taking responsibility for your own mistakes because to do so would cause you to lose face. Chinese are obsessed with face to the extent that it rules their lives and their relationships. It is difficult for a Westerner to understand the lengths a Chinese will go to in order to avoid losing face. To deal with this, in the context of working out your contract problems, when you are dealing with your supervisor you have to approach any problem in a manner similar to this: "Supervisor Wang, I know that you are very wise and fair and that you would never allow (whatever the problem is) to happen so I can only guess that some member of your staff erred and this is the result." By approaching Wang in this manner, it not only allows him/her to save face by not having to admit to personally making the error, it also makes Wang like you a little and think that you must be a pretty smart cooky to have grasped how fair and wise s/he is.

2) Guanxi - it ain't what you know, it's who you know.

3) Bribery - it is rampant in China and permeates all levels of society and government. In the situation you described above, the agent probably couldn't care less about the school director socially, but made the statement about them knowing each other because your school director is paying him a bribe to process your paperwork without any hassles. This is common practice in China.

4) Negotiation - Everything in China is negotiable; both before and after your contract is signed. Anytime your employer tries to deviate even one iota from the contract, demand, in a nice but firm way, something in return. If they want you to work an extra hour, ask for an extra vacation day. You may not get it, but if they see you as a tough negotiator, they will find someone else to bother instead of you. When you negotiate something, either get your benefit on the spot or get it in writing on the spot. Chinese employers have memories of convenience - theirs. If something is not stated in the contract, it is negotiable. Remember that you are your own best asset. If all else fails, tell your supervisor that XYZ School down the street has offered you what you want and that you are ready to tender your resignation and go to work for them. Your resignation over a simple matter would cause your supervisor to lose face and s/he does not want that to happen.

As far as your Z visa is concerned, technically you should get it in your home country. The problem with this is that Chinese embassies don't trust foreign doctors and are loath to accept the medical reports from the doctors in your home country. This is such a frequent problem, and such a hassle to overcome, that the common practice has been to enter China on a tourist visa and have the Z visa paperwork done once you are there.

Good luck!

[MyTurnNow]

Hi!
I've had 3 major jobs in China. 2 paid all my document expenses, one even including a paid trip to Hong Kong to change visas over. So fully paid docs are DEFINITELY out there.

As for contracts, I certainly will not dispute that they have a lot of holes and that quite often the managers won't abide by them anyway. But I do maintain that they are the place to start for basic information. And they are the foundation for your viewpoints in a dispute. They should have some info about the handling of visa matters...plenty of room left to argue over the subtleties.

MT

[GONZALVESB]

Thanx for the advice on how to deal with these people and the lesson in Chinese culture. I really needed it because I have no idea how to deal with these people. As far as the contract goes, there is really nothing in the contract about visas or any other documents required for teaching in China.

[gerard]

Sorry to hijack this for a minute but yaco mentions 70% changeable to foreign currency. My school is 30 % and vet teachers say they wont budge on it. Why does this matter to the school? Are they worried you will save too much and not have enough fun? Been curious about this one.

[noodles]

I also had to pay for my own visa. Although i am aware of this not being the "norm" it is something my school insisted on. They have stated that if i want to stay with them next year then they will pay the costs to have it extended.
Although i know that a lot of schools pay this for you i decided to take into account that my school is generally very good and have been, by the standards here, very good to me. So i see this as a small amount to pay for the peace of mind of working for a good school.

[MyTurnNow]

Negotiation is the key to everything. A lot of these weasels talk pretty tough but if you are firm and stand your ground you can win some wars. Never forget (and never let them forget) that in China, English Teachers are most definitely a sellers' market. If you aren't dealt with reasonably you can have 10 new jobs by sundown...you at least won't be homeless and starving. They need you more than you need them. If you are right and you stick to your guns most of these guys will collapse like soap bubbles.

It's even better if you can unify the faculty on issues. We recently had a sit-down strike in the middle of a school day that wrought miraculous changes in our workplace environment. The Director of Studies was cool about it...I AM the DoS and I was right in the middle of it myself. I can't do my job if this screeching idiot keeps driving away all my teachers. Note that nobody actually quit...we all just refused to leave our seats in the office until our demand was met. Ever since then we've gotten real negotiation instead of bluster, long before things go nuclear.

With a Chinese boss it's nice if- when possible- you can let the guy retain some face. Concede a small point and win the big one. It's the way stuff gets done here. It isn't always possible...our sit-down strike saw the guy's face torn off, wiped on our bums, and fed to the turtles. Long overdue. But if you _can_ leave him some dignity, do so. It might help things down the road.

So, know when to get tough and then do it. It does work if done right. If not you don't really want to keep that job anyway. (Also know when to be diplomatic...)

When things like visa issues- a core issue for foreign teachers!- are not stated explicitly in the contract it's time to ask. And if you get what you want ask to have it stated in writing as a rider to your contract. I do sympathize- if you are new at this it's hard to know what to ask before you sign. That's a nice thing about forums like this! Can I venture a guess that your boss is fairly new at this business? At most schools, the contracts are evolving wrks in progress as the learning curve is traversed.

MT

[yaco]

I find it fascinating that nearly every debate about work or living conditions in China comes back to ' saving face'.

Why must we always find an excuse for Chinese people to be disingenous or dishonest ?

I have never heard such a ridiculous claim. So as a worker you are not paid your correct entitlements because the school administrator must ' save face'. Who are they 'saving face' from.

Lets face it you sign an employment contract to work 14 hrs per week. You receive an English language contract and a Chinese language contract. Which foreign teacher understands the Chinese language contract. What is to stop the school stating that you will work 18 hrs per week in the ' Chinese language contract'. The relevant authorities are notified of the 18 hr contract and the school pockets the other 4 hours. The foreign teacher still works the required hours and receives the correct renumeration. This is a common occurrence in the provision of employment contracts.

You start as a small fish and then become a big fish as you become hungrier.

There is a shortage of foreign teachers in China which is exacerbated by their employment practices. If to many prospective teachers read this forum there will be a severe shortage of teachers !!!!!!!!

Roger makes many valuable points that add to the discussion on this forum but his constart carping ' to read contracts' is wearing. If the contract is often changed when you arrive in China to benefit the school, what is the point of reading the contract. The contract is not a watertight document as in many other countries. We read about the one successful appeal to the relevant authority about the breaking of contracts but where are all the other successful cases.

Another quote that irks me and which provides no practical assistance is ' you must learn about Chinese culture';But yet we expect the new teacher to learn Chinese culture in a short space of time. Understanding a culture takes months if not years to fully comprehend. Lets get real !!! Whilst during this time the techer continues ' to get screwed' and leaves China in frustration.

The forum should provide practical assistance as well as moral support.

Gee, I hope I have not lost face.

[MyTurnNow]

Uh, I also harp on The Reading of Contracts a lot. Amazing how rarely people follow this advice regardless of where it comes from. Too many teachers are totally ignorant of their contracts and get screwed because of it.

We all know the shortcomings of contracts (and owners/managers) here...at least all of us that have been here more than 15 minutes. But the fact remains that your contract is the legal basis for your side in any dispute. It lends weight to your arguments if you are in line with the contract. It gives you whatever prayer you might ever have of getting legal justice. If you storm out of a job and get taken to court it might save your *beep*. It's _important_...but so many people blithely sign it and never look at it again. Some- not all, but some- questions can be easily answered by looking at it. So it's not an unreasonable thing to suggest.

Nobody can fully understand Chinese culture in a short time but that doesn't mean it's OK to ignore it or dismiss it. It hurts nothing to try. Face is important here. Maintaining it _might_ prevent the need to resort to extreme measures like sit-down strikes. Again, no harm in trying. Unless you're really prepared for that strike, maintaining face has a much better chance of success than pounding your fists on the table does.

It also hurts nothing to remember that our hosts do not see a lot of things the same way we do...some of what we see as "dishonesty" is seen here as "good business sense". This is a country where business contracts are routinely thrown aside when a better deal is detected. It's the prevailing culture of the country we have chosen to live and work in, and all our moral outrage will not alter that fact. We cannot impose our worldview upon them, nor should we be able to. We're not here to "educate savages". We have the choice of working within their framework or getting the *beep* out. TIFC, man.

I, for one, have never asked anybody to give up the important things they are entitled to. Nor would I want anyone to let a boss get away with flagrant crooked dealings. Indeed, I showed a real personal example where "face" was totally trashed...when it _had_ to be done. I advocate tough, stubborn negotiations, and walking away from a job where the environment is just too dishonest. I merely suggest that letting everyone walk away from the table with at least one small victory to show, not using more force than is absolutely necessary, is always the best solution when it's possible to do so. Isn't this good advice everywhere???

MT

[anigbrowl]

If I may make 2 small points...very tentatively, as I have not lived in China so far. These are based on observations and explanations from many Asian friends over the years.

Face. Asian societies, especially China, are pretty hierarchical. Even Japan has had the same political party in power since democracy was instituted. So status matters if you want to 'get on' in those societies. And in a poorer country (China is still an emerging market), 'getting on' is a basic life issue, not like in the west where you can be a dropout and still have relatie financial security.

So in a system where dependence on others is so important, people take their status roles seriously. This must be pretty tough for all but the most pampered kids - when other, more powerful, people control your whole future, they can push you around any old way. So I'd guess many Chinese people have had their share of humiliation and personal pressure as kids. Nobody likes being humiliated of course, and even a private encounter between you and your employer/ agent/ whoever has the potential to make them feel uncomfortable if you get too aggressive in asserting yourself - it just makes them feel small.

I learned this the hard way, by alienating a Chinese client in another line of business some years back. It took me months to repair the relationship, which I damaged in mere minutes by a careless comment on the competence of his staff. I had thought I was making a practical observation from one professional to another (Gee Andy, maybe your people need more training), but to him it came across as an indictment of his hiring policy, and he went absolutely ballistic, yelling about all sorts of irrelevant stuff to cover up the fact that I had made him feel small.

Now this seems bizarre to us as westerners, but consider that 100 or even 50 years ago American and British folks were a lot more concerned with manners and appearances than they are today. Just look at a 50s movie and see how many plot twists revolve around people's dignity or honour being called into question. Politeness and politics originate from the same word

Laws. I don't think ESL teachers are alone in having contractual difficulties, every other week I read in the bsiness press about the difficulties of doing business in China for foreign firms, due to different perspectives about contracts, governance and so on. In the west we have become absolutely obsessed with legalities and fine print, leading to a rather unpleasant litigation culture. We grant extraordinary weight to the written word, perhaps because of our religious history (ten commandments supposedly having come down from God...significant that He makes his wishes known in writing rather than a personal address, eh ).

China just doesn't have this culture of embedded rules and procedures, it has historically operated on personal relationships. I gather many Japanese firms have also had problems dealing with western ones, because excessive western focus on contractual matters seems like an indirect way to express distrust - and if you've ever been in a legal dispute, you probably know full well how perfectly nice lawyers turn into Genghis Khan once you get to the negotiation stage.

Definitely, in a less legalistic environment, people will play fast and loose to find out what your tolerances are. This is not an Asian phenomenon, it's universal as far as I can tell. And yes, it's sort of nerve-wracking and you have to get into the rather awkward business of haggling over every darn thing. I'm not a great haggler myself, and have been burnt because of that in the past (if you think the Chinese are bad, avoid the Scots!).

BUT there is a big plus side too. If you make a deal and everyone respects everyone else, then you are in a system where people are prepared to bend the rules for you. I feel, we're not machines or computer programs, we're people. An all-defining legal framework is a nice security blanket, indeed essential for things like financial markets and so on, but ultimately there are no perfect technical solutions to human problems. If the overall deal is fair, give me a system with a bit of slack and leeway every time, rather than an inflexible 'the computer has spoken' one.

Sorry that this is not any direct help with the contract issues. I just find people a lot easier to deal with when I keep some psychological issues like this in mind.

[Roger]

To Yaco,
I also agree with your view about Chinese "culture". To me, this behavioral pattern is unculture - not growing up and respecting others as equals. Merely relying on one's status as employer or a big wheel. Saving face is reserved for those who have a face to show off, not for the rest of us and them. Note that Chinese can be extremely outspoken on things to each other so long as they are on equal footing. You can overhear rather childish quarrels anywhere in the street, notably between spouses!
IOt just changes when one person is a hierarchical superior.
And as outsiders, we always are on the lowest soical rung, thus at the receiving end of criticism but we are never listened to.
This works especially in schools -[ your students can complain about you, but you will never be allowed to complain about them. Or about your colleagues!

Still, I feel contracts are legal papers. Although I agree they don't carry much weight before some bosses or even the PSB!
However, you must ask pertinent questions IN GOOD TIME:
- VIsa question should always be discussed before one signs a contract!!!
- I also ask bosses to insert a clause that written instructions are binding,
whereas oral instructions ...case by case!
- I demand the school foot the bill for documentation! I bought my passport and an air ticket to here - they owe me the relevant papers to live and work here legally, and these must come at their expense. I have never paid for these in eight years! I did work on F visas on occasion, but I got my full-time employers to refund me not just in full but also for the travelling outlays incurred!
Note that if they don't know that you need a work visa (call it a "Z' visa, and see if they know what it means!), then they are not legit, as so many of them have not gone through the hoops that China's bureaucracy has set up for employers. They need two permits - one from the local education bureau (and often, there are different education bureaus!), and a permit from the PSB.
And, in some instances the taxman too needs to be informed so he can take his cut from your income!