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weigookin74
Joined: 30 Mar 2010
Posts: 265
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kpjf
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 385
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 Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: Japan loses its shine for foreign workers. |
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I don't really see why to be honest. The article you link is a general job article not TEFL related.
Just look at the JET programme. I don't know exact figures but a hell of a lot of people apply to this programme every year to such an extent that they also have quite a few people on a waitlist in case someone backs out last minute or actually goes to Japan and quits within a couple of weeks (culture shock etc). Here, my point is in no way whatsoever is Japan struggling to fill their JET places and if anyone withdraws they have a tonne of people on the waitlist ready to accept in the drop of a hat. I'd even go further, if JET reduced the monthly salary by 20,000Y they'd still have enough people applying to it.
Also, if language schools outside of JET had serious problems filling jobs then by laws of demand and supply they would have to increase salaries...but they're not. What does that imply? I mean it's all about demand and supply in the workplace. Someone on this forum once talked about a shitscale; i.e. the worse the place the more salary they have to offer and the better the place the opposite (of course this will not apply to every country).
Japan is not what it once was for TEFL - we all know this. However, unlike some other Asian countries many TEFLers go to Japan because they have an interest in the language/culture/country. Take a lot of TEFLers in China: how many go for a genuine interest in the country? Sure it is an old country with a lot of history and a powerful language, but in most cases it's because of the job opportunities and decent salaries with free housing.
So, I ask again why should Japan increase TEFL salaries? However, I do think they could make the JET programme a bit more demanding in terms of qualifications, say a bit like in Korea; e.g. people with master's in TESOL/education, or teaching experience get precedence, and/or a higher salary to attract people with more of an interest in teaching rather than ones who just love manga and want to do TEFL for a year before going home to get a 'real' job. |
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kzjohn
Joined: 30 Apr 2014
Posts: 277
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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The owner of a long-established Chinese restaurant in Tokyo's Akasaka district is already feeling the effects of these changes.
When he was looking for a new part-time worker recently, a young Chinese applicant demanded a monthly wage of 300,000 yen ($2,833), twice the amount he has traditionally paid such employees.
"I can't afford monthly wages that high," the owner grumbled.
The applicant said the restaurant's current pay level is no different from what he could earn back in China. The average monthly income of workers in Shanghai reached 5,451 yuan ($813) in 2014 and has continued to rise. |
Either they got some numbers wrong in the article, or this is just ridiculously laughable. Let's generously imagine that the average monthly income in shanghai is now about $1000. Does anyone really believe that a restaurant worker there is going to make anything close to that? |
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moviefan1987
Joined: 23 Nov 2015
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:06 am Post subject: |
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When he was looking for a new part-time worker recently, a young Chinese applicant demanded a monthly wage of 300,000 yen ($2,833), twice the amount he has traditionally paid such employees.
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300,000 yen a month to work part time at a restaurant? LOL. No where in the world would anyone make that kind of salary as a part time time worker at a restaurant. That Chinese worker is just trolling.
Yes, Japan is not going to make you rich through teaching English. Neither will anywhere else in the world. I have friends teaching TEFL in Thailand and Mexico and they only make enough to pay their expenses with a little bit left over. But they enjoy their lives working abroad. TEFL is all about the lifestyle, and Japan is still a decent place to enjoy TEFL, earn money, and travel. |
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Black_Beer_Man
Joined: 26 Mar 2013
Posts: 453
Location: Yokohama
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:17 am Post subject: |
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The cost of living in Japan is quite high for all foreigners (factory workers and ESL teachers). Especially residence tax and health insurance. If you're over 40, health insurance costs you 10% of your salary.
Other Asian countries don't have residence tax and their health care insurance is cheaper and often subsidized by employers.
It's no wonder why Japan is becoming a less attractive place to work compared with Korea, Taiwan and even China.
The JET Program is an anomaly in Japan's ESL industry. It provides perks like subsidized housing and a free round-trip plane ticket. It would be almost any job-hunter's first choice. Therefore, it's not fair to use it as an argument to say interest in teaching ESL in Japan is so great.
For a better indicator, look at the language schools and dispatch companies and who they hire. These days they hire a lot of teachers from countries where the first language is not English. I've met people from France, Spain, Israel, Africa, Philippines... Most of these countries have lower costs of living than in those countries where English is the first language, so these teachers don't mind working for less money.
If Japan were a top tier country for teaching English, these positions would be filled by teachers from English speaking countries. However, salaries have stagnated or gone down while cost of living has gone up. |
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Black_Beer_Man
Joined: 26 Mar 2013
Posts: 453
Location: Yokohama
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:27 am Post subject: |
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Japan, with its aging society, will eventually have to raise salaries for foreign workers to compete with Korea and Taiwan. It might not happen in ESL, but vital services like nursing.
On another note, a lot of countries want to import factory workers rather than outsource work to China. That way the workers can pay tax, health care insurance and other costs locally. Sadly, some black companies in Japan are scamming Chinese workers luring them here by promising them skills training, but exploit them with them menial factory jobs instead. https://youtu.be/wt__lHCuH5g |
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kpjf
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 385
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| Black_Beer_Man wrote: |
The cost of living in Japan is quite high for all foreigners (factory workers and ESL teachers). Especially residence tax and health insurance. If you're over 40, health insurance costs you 10% of your salary.
Other Asian countries don't have residence tax and their health care insurance is cheaper and often subsidized by employers.
It's no wonder why Japan is becoming a less attractive place to work compared with Korea, Taiwan and even China. |
Why don't you just work elsewhere then? All you do in your posts is question why Japan does or doesn't do x.
Actually, if you look at the Taiwan forum you'll see it's dead as hector as an EFL destination! Proof: scrolling down on the Japan forum to end of first page, it goes to May 2016. Now do the same on the Taiwan forum and it goes to May 2015 showing the lack of posts.
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| The JET Program is an anomaly in Japan's ESL industry. It provides perks like subsidized housing and a free round-trip plane ticket. |
It doesn't provide subsidised housing; rather it might and the degree of subsidy can differ from place to place. Also, it can stick you in the middle of nowhere, and yes free flights are good but they're rather anal about where you must fly from. It's a bit of a mixed bag.
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| It would be almost any job-hunter's first choice. |
Are you joking?! To be an ALT? It's an entry level job and many who do it are fresh grads.
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| If Japan were a top tier country for teaching English, these positions would be filled by teachers from English speaking countries. However, salaries have stagnated or gone down while cost of living has gone up. |
Could you please give me a list of what top tier countries there are for teaching English? How do you define top tier in this context? Yes, as I already stated Japan is not what it once was, but almost everywhere is worse nowadays. Taiwan is dead, everyone says Korea is nowhere near as good as it was, even in the ME salaries are going down, Europe doesn't offer many opportunities and even if you have a TEFL job in Europe you're hardly going to save much.
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| For a better indicator, look at the language schools and dispatch companies and who they hire. These days they hire a lot of teachers from countries where the first language is not English. I've met people from France, Spain, Israel, Africa, Philippines... Most of these countries have lower costs of living than in those countries where English is the first language, so these teachers don't mind working for less money. |
Is this an exaggeration or true? Anyone else? By the way, has anyone worked with non-native English teachers in Japan? How good is their English?
Oh and how many private high schools are recruiting non-native English speakers? I doubt it's many (if any). Since when was Africa a country?! It's worth pointing out that there are approx 20 African countries where English is a de jure official language. |
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kzjohn
Joined: 30 Apr 2014
Posts: 277
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| kpjf wrote: |
| Black_Beer_Man wrote: |
The cost of living in Japan is quite high for all foreigners (factory workers and ESL teachers). Especially residence tax and health insurance. If you're over 40, health insurance costs you 10% of your salary.
Other Asian countries don't have residence tax and their health care insurance is cheaper and often subsidized by employers.
It's no wonder why Japan is becoming a less attractive place to work compared with Korea, Taiwan and even China. |
Why don't you just work elsewhere then? All you do in your posts is question why Japan does or doesn't do x.
Actually, if you look at the Taiwan forum you'll see it's dead as hector as an EFL destination! Proof: scrolling down on the Japan forum to end of first page, it goes to May 2016. Now do the same on the Taiwan forum and it goes to May 2015 showing the lack of posts.
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| The JET Program is an anomaly in Japan's ESL industry. It provides perks like subsidized housing and a free round-trip plane ticket. |
It doesn't provide subsidised housing; rather it might and the degree of subsidy can differ from place to place. Also, it can stick you in the middle of nowhere, and yes free flights are good but they're rather anal about where you must fly from. It's a bit of a mixed bag.
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| It would be almost any job-hunter's first choice. |
Are you joking?! To be an ALT? It's an entry level job and many who do it are fresh grads.
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| If Japan were a top tier country for teaching English, these positions would be filled by teachers from English speaking countries. However, salaries have stagnated or gone down while cost of living has gone up. |
Could you please give me a list of what top tier countries there are for teaching English? How do you define top tier in this context? Yes, as I already stated Japan is not what it once was, but almost everywhere is worse nowadays. Taiwan is dead, everyone says Korea is nowhere near as good as it was, even in the ME salaries are going down, Europe doesn't offer many opportunities and even if you have a TEFL job in Europe you're hardly going to save much.
| Quote: |
| For a better indicator, look at the language schools and dispatch companies and who they hire. These days they hire a lot of teachers from countries where the first language is not English. I've met people from France, Spain, Israel, Africa, Philippines... Most of these countries have lower costs of living than in those countries where English is the first language, so these teachers don't mind working for less money. |
Is this an exaggeration or true? Anyone else? By the way, has anyone worked with non-native English teachers in Japan? How good is their English?
Oh and how many private high schools are recruiting non-native English speakers? I doubt it's many (if any). Since when was Africa a country?! It's worth pointing out that there are approx 20 African countries where English is a de jure official language. |
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Black_Beer_Man
Joined: 26 Mar 2013
Posts: 453
Location: Yokohama
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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Of course I know Africa is not a country. I used it as shorthand because the Africans who teach ESL come from many countries there.
Top tier countries to teach English (by salary). In no particular order.
Saudi Arabia
UAE
Hong Kong
South Korea
Japan used to be in this well-paying group. The Japanese govt. used to have a sort of minimum wage in the 1990's of 250,000 yen a month for ESL teachers.
More than 20 years later, that's gone and you see ads on Dave's for 180,000 yen, 220,000 yen a month.
I've been told that the 250,000 yen minimum was not a law, but a guideline that the ESL schools followed.
Now, if you're earning 220,000 yen a month and have to pay Japan's high living expenses, there's not going to be much money left over to enjoy. In fact, most people would do better to stay in their own countries and work at Starbucks. And seeing all these teachers from non-English speaking countries coming over here, it seems like that's what they're doing. |
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TokyoLiz
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| These days they hire a lot of teachers from countries where the first language is not English. |
And many of those teachers are qualified teachers from their home countries, or starting their careers as teachers with experience in Japan. I have worked alongside Philippines teachers who had home country experience. They are ready to work, more so than fresh grads from English center countries.
Also, note that English is an official language in many African countries and Philippines. |
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Black_Beer_Man
Joined: 26 Mar 2013
Posts: 453
Location: Yokohama
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:48 am Post subject: |
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| TokyoLiz wrote: |
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| These days they hire a lot of teachers from countries where the first language is not English. |
And many of those teachers are qualified teachers from their home countries, or starting their careers as teachers with experience in Japan. I have worked alongside Philippines teachers who had home country experience. They are ready to work, more so than fresh grads from English center countries.
Also, note that English is an official language in many African countries and Philippines. |
While I agree with you, I'll add that Japanese schools hire these teachers because they'll work for less money than teachers from English-speaking countries.
If you look at ESL job ads for most other countries including Korea, Saudi Arabia, Taiwan and even China, they only hire teachers from USA, Canada, the UK, Australia and New Zealand.
Yes, these teachers from Philippines might be qualified, but in Japan, it's all about the money and how much the Japanese can make off your backs. |
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TokyoLiz
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:13 am Post subject: |
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you look at ESL job ads for most other countries including Korea, Saudi Arabia, Taiwan and even China, they only hire teachers from USA, Canada, the UK, Australia and New Zealand.
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Those discriminatory hiring practices may be based on prejudices or the native speaker fallacy, or both. Either way, institutions in those countries lose out on a wider pool of skilled teachers.
Some years ago at A JALT conference, a panel discussed the issue of discriminatory wages based on perceptions of race or native speaker status. A South Asian professor said she had been subjected to prejudiced comments from interviewers and coworkers. Some North American middle school and EFL teachers working in Japan who are of East Asian decent said they were paid less than their "white" counterparts.
On the other hand, I worked with North American and other foreign teachers who are not white, and do very well on the merit of their teacher qualifications and experience.
About the low wages - there are job listings for TESOL and other qualified teachers that start at ¥270,000. That's not bad for a rookie teacher. Once you get more experience, you can move up to better earning positions, if you want.
*corrected typo
Last edited by TokyoLiz on Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:36 am Post subject: |
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| Black_Beer_Man wrote: |
| If you look at ESL job ads for most other countries including Korea, Saudi Arabia, Taiwan and even China, they only hire teachers from USA, Canada, the UK, Australia and New Zealand. |
In terms of Saudi Arabia, it's a visa issuance situation. In other words, those are the nationalities that can be issued visas for that particular employer at that time. But I worked alongside direct-hire university foundation year teachers from just about every corner of the world. |
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Black_Beer_Man
Joined: 26 Mar 2013
Posts: 453
Location: Yokohama
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:52 am Post subject: |
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TokyoLiz,I agree with you that the lower salaries for Filipinos are based on racism.
However, the racism is just a cover for the real issue. Money. The companies will cook up any excuse to pay a cultural group lower wages.
What introducing Filipinos does the the ESL industry in Japan is depress salaries for everybody.
Those 220,000 yen ALT wages are never going to go up. And as Filipinos get a good reputation for quality teaching and a strong wok ethic, they'll move into the better educational institutions, you'll likely see salaries go down there too.
Many smaller colleges in Japan need to cut wages because of the decreasing of bums warming seats (ie: students). Many schools these days close due to low enrollment. |
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TokyoLiz
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:07 am Post subject: |
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That's the way the sembei crumbles.
As the job market here shrinks, you have to make some choices. You can become more competitive to appeal to institutions that provide good conditions, change careers, and/or move to a better job market. |
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