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portnoy58
Joined: 09 Aug 2015
Posts: 25
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 Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:32 am Post subject: Why do schools ask teachers to act illegally? |
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This is what I don't understand. Why do schools ask their prospective employees to apply for a tourist visa and in so doing tell a pack of lies about their reasons for wanting to visit China?
I mean it doesn't bode well for the future of the employee-employer relationship. Before the ink is dry on the contract the employer is asking the teacher to break the law and presumably in China the principle that you cannot enter into a contract for unlawful purposes renders said contract null and void?
When I apply for my tourist visa in order to work and get my Z visa processed what should I actually say about my reasons for visiting China?
It seems the F visa is much more suitable for the purposes of coming to China to sort out your Z visas and deliver your notarised etc documents; the purpose of the visit could also be phrased in terms of final assessment before agreeing terms; in my case if it ever comes to fruition I would like to check out what's on offer and get a sense of the local environment as I am bringing two young kids with me. So F seems perfect - I don't understand why it's not automatic.
If nothing else it requires the school to state there is an intention to create a relationship with the prospective employee.
Now I know there are a lot of sharp operators out there but I am being asked to make dodgy visa applications by people who in all other respects seem to be considerate and thoughtful.
What's the real low down on this? Is it really difficult for schools to process Z visa applications for teachers that are outside of China or is it just bloody-mindedness on the schools' parts? |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:51 am Post subject: Re: Why do schools ask teachers to act illegally? |
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| portnoy58 wrote: |
| I am bringing two young kids with me. |
Hopefully they'll be joining you after you have the proper visa and are settled in. |
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The bear
Joined: 16 Aug 2015
Posts: 483
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:55 am Post subject: Re: Why do schools ask teachers to act illegally? |
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| portnoy58 wrote: |
This is what I don't understand. Why do schools ask their prospective employees to apply for a tourist visa and in so doing tell a pack of lies about their reasons for wanting to visit China?
I mean it doesn't bode well for the future of the employee-employer relationship. Before the ink is dry on the contract the employer is asking the teacher to break the law and presumably in China the principle that you cannot enter into a contract for unlawful purposes renders said contract null and void?
When I apply for my tourist visa in order to work and get my Z visa processed what should I actually say about my reasons for visiting China?
It seems the F visa is much more suitable for the purposes of coming to China to sort out your Z visas and deliver your notarised etc documents; the purpose of the visit could also be phrased in terms of final assessment before agreeing terms; in my case if it ever comes to fruition I would like to check out what's on offer and get a sense of the local environment as I am bringing two young kids with me. So F seems perfect - I don't understand why it's not automatic.
If nothing else it requires the school to state there is an intention to create a relationship with the prospective employee.
Now I know there are a lot of sharp operators out there but I am being asked to make dodgy visa applications by people who in all other respects seem to be considerate and thoughtful.
What's the real low down on this? Is it really difficult for schools to process Z visa applications for teachers that are outside of China or is it just bloody-mindedness on the schools' parts? |
Most employers who ask teachers to come on a tourist visa probably won't have the authority to hire foreigners. It takes a special licence for employers to hire foreigners.
From what I know as well, there's little incentive not to break the law if you're an employer as everything I hear about punishment is on the teacher. You hear stories about foreigners being deported, fined, banned from entering China, but very little (I've literally heard nothing) about the employers being punished. Maybe it's because I'm not reading the right things, or it's all in Chinese. Surely there is a punishment for illegally hiring foreigners, but a pack of expensive cigarettes, a meal out, a plump red envelope is pocket changed compared to the tuition fees a foreign face can bring in. These are business people, before anything else. |
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OhBudPowellWhereArtThou
Joined: 02 Jun 2015
Posts: 1168
Location: Since 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: Why do schools ask teachers to act illegally? |
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| portnoy58 wrote: |
It seems the F visa is much more suitable for the purposes of coming to China to sort out your Z visas and deliver your notarised etc documents; the purpose of the visit could also be phrased in terms of final assessment before agreeing terms; in my case if it ever comes to fruition I would like to check out what's on offer and get a sense of the local environment as I am bringing two young kids with me. So F seems perfect - I don't understand why it's not automatic.
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This is part of the problem. Some people don't want to follow protocol. Some people CANNOT follow protocol for various reasons involving qualifications.
A Z visa is for an approved foreign employee who will be paid by a Chinese entity.
An F visa is for those who intend to go to China to do business while being paid by a non-Chinese entity-- their own company, for example. It is not intended to allow people to arrive in China to negotiate terms for a new visa.
An L visa is for tourists.
Do you really need to have it explained to you why an employer would want an employee to to arrive on the improper visa? |
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kungfuman
Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 1749
Location: In My Own Private Idaho
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| I've been reading news stories about crackdowns , jail time, and deportations for those working on tourist visas |
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portnoy58
Joined: 09 Aug 2015
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: Why do schools ask teachers to act illegally? |
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[quote="OhBudPowellWhereArtThou"]
| portnoy58 wrote: |
Do you really need to have it explained to you why an employer would want an employee to to arrive on the improper visa? |
I am new to China. I don't understand the pervasiveness of this behaviour just from personal experience relating to two job offers from seemingly respectable schools. I am grateful for the advice and pointers.
I am trying to understand if this is the schools taking short cuts and applying sharp practices or if there is any real genuine reason for it because of the bureaucracy; and I am also trying to decide if I should take the risk and enter to work on a tourist visa. It seems many do and get away with it and successfully convert their Ls into Zs. |
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OhBudPowellWhereArtThou
Joined: 02 Jun 2015
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Location: Since 2003
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LAR1SSA
Joined: 02 Nov 2013
Posts: 48
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: Why do schools ask teachers to act illegally? |
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[quote="portnoy58"]
| OhBudPowellWhereArtThou wrote: |
| portnoy58 wrote: |
Do you really need to have it explained to you why an employer would want an employee to to arrive on the improper visa? |
I am new to China. I don't understand the pervasiveness of this behaviour just from personal experience relating to two job offers from seemingly respectable schools. I am grateful for the advice and pointers.
I am trying to understand if this is the schools taking short cuts and applying sharp practices or if there is any real genuine reason for it because of the bureaucracy; and I am also trying to decide if I should take the risk and enter to work on a tourist visa. It seems many do and get away with it and successfully convert their Ls into Zs. |
Well is the school on a time crunch?? |
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portnoy58
Joined: 09 Aug 2015
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:44 pm Post subject: Update |
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| Thanks for the information and links that have been posted on this thread. I've told the two schools who have been stringing me along that I am not prepared to enter China on anything other than a Z visa. For school number one I've told them my application is now over in view of the time we have been talking. For school two who have just popped up with an offer I've advised them Z visa or no visa. Once ore I am grateful for the help offered here which has enable me to get my head around the issues. |
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roadwalker
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1750
Location: Ch
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| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:04 am Post subject: |
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One big reason that a school would ask a teacher to come without a work visa, is that the school is not bound to hire the teacher when they arrive. So if conditions change, and they don't need another teacher after all, or if they need a teacher but the newly arrived one doesn't seem to fit the bill, then the school can just ignore the teacher and say goodbye, and good luck in China!
Fitting the bill can be anything good or bad: Not blond enough; not European-looking enough; too creepy looking; too inebriated; not perky enough; not smiling enoug; etc. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:23 am Post subject: |
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portnoy58:
As I recall, on other threads, you voiced your concern about your age (over 55). However, you have a PGCEi and experience teaching math. Surely that would net you a position with a legit school and no hassles. |
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BruceLeeWannaBe
Joined: 12 Jun 2012
Posts: 210
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| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| roadwalker wrote: |
One big reason that a school would ask a teacher to come without a work visa, is that the school is not bound to hire the teacher when they arrive. So if conditions change, and they don't need another teacher after all, or if they need a teacher but the newly arrived one doesn't seem to fit the bill, then the school can just ignore the teacher and say goodbye, and good luck in China!
Fitting the bill can be anything good or bad: Not blond enough; not European-looking enough; too creepy looking; too inebriated; not perky enough; not smiling enoug; etc. |
Even if you come on a Z visa, they can refuse you a couple weeks after you arrive still. Even with a legal z visa and resident permit they can cancel your visa and tell you to leave without trial or due processing. No matter what visa you're on, you don't have job security. Anyone coming to China for their first time, know this. Job security does not exist.
One reason I believe they would want you on a tourist visa first is because they are lazy and don't want to go through all the processing to get you the work permit and invitation letter to fed ex to you so you can get your z visa. More work on their part.
I remember meeting teachers with solid BA's and their school would have some excuse to get them an F visa or whatever after they arrived. And they assumed that because the management are the professionals they know what they're doing.
| kungfuman wrote: |
| I've been reading news stories about crackdowns , jail time, and deportations for those working on tourist visas |
Having a solid BA degree won't solve all your legal problems. Your school may get you a Z visa and resident permit and you may be more legal than someone on a business visa or something like that. But you are never 100% legal. Your school could get your resident permit registered through some other place you don't even work, have your so called profession listed as something other than an English teacher, or some odd minor thing that's just slightly off while your resident permit appears 100% legit.
If anything happens at all where authorities check your visa and your status, no matter how legal it is, if they are hellbent on their ambition to find something wrong and have you kicked out, believe me. They're going to find something to pin on you. Especially if somebody bribed them to do so. At this point, no matter how legal your BA is or how legal your visa status is, any police officer on a power trip comes along renders any legal arguement you have useless. I know it's not that common, but it's not unheard of.
People usually argue that having a solid BA, z visa, resident permit will solve all their legal troubles. Wrong. It only mitigates them and decreases the chances of something bad happening. But you are never 100% legal by any means.
Not long ago someone on this forum said that they were caught having pictures taken next to students from a different school that weren't even theirs and the police found out and even though it's done all the time, this one foreigner was just unlucky enough to be threatened with jail and deportation if he did not pay 10,000RMB. |
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portnoy58
Joined: 09 Aug 2015
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:53 pm Post subject: True |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
portnoy58:
As I recall, on other threads, you voiced your concern about your age (over 55). However, you have a PGCEi and experience teaching math. Surely that would net you a position with a legit school and no hassles. |
Well this is certainly true but my experience is that the two schools who have offered me employment also want me to enter on F or L visas. The first one was quite insidious and played it out for a long time. Looking on the bright side I have learned a lot in the last couple of months. |
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portnoy58
Joined: 09 Aug 2015
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| roadwalker wrote: |
One big reason that a school would ask a teacher to come without a work visa, is that the school is not bound to hire the teacher when they arrive. So if conditions change, and they don't need another teacher after all, or if they need a teacher but the newly arrived one doesn't seem to fit the bill, then the school can just ignore the teacher and say goodbye, and good luck in China!
Fitting the bill can be anything good or bad: Not blond enough; not European-looking enough; too creepy looking; too inebriated; not perky enough; not smiling enoug; etc. |
But there must ways they can do that regardless of entering on a Z visa - I wasn't aware a Z visa made you untouchable. |
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OhBudPowellWhereArtThou
Joined: 02 Jun 2015
Posts: 1168
Location: Since 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:05 pm Post subject: Re: True |
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| portnoy58 wrote: |
| nomad soul wrote: |
portnoy58:
As I recall, on other threads, you voiced your concern about your age (over 55). However, you have a PGCEi and experience teaching math. Surely that would net you a position with a legit school and no hassles. |
Well this is certainly true but my experience is that the two schools who have offered me employment also want me to enter on F or L visas. The first one was quite insidious and played it out for a long time. Looking on the bright side I have learned a lot in the last couple of months. |
RUN!!!!! |
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