Job Discussion Forums

[thomas_pynchon]

I've been offered an ESL job in Beijing, I hold an MA applied linguistics, 120TEFL Cert, the offer is 25,500RMB/m, return flight, health ins hasn't been mentioned yet, plus they have offered to pay for a partial housing allowance (amount not specified yet, but I would need a very quiet 2b condo).
I would be teaching 25h/week, small classes (5 students), preparing students to study overseas in high schools. That seems to be a high course load to me.

This would be my first time to china, I have taught in SE asia for 10 years at University and Int'l schools. There is a recruiter unfortunately, I don't know what she is taking.

I have an interview next week to find out more details about the job, but how does this look on the surface, any suggestions on how to negotiate a deal like this? They seem to be very interested, they offered to pay for part of the rental, but I would like to ask them to cover the full cost of accomodation, but I have no idea what a 2b condo might cost (that is very quiet).

Thanks for any help with this.

[creeper1]

The cost of accommodation in Beijing varies enormously depending on factors such as proximity to subway station, location (some central locations or those in Haidian are freaking expensive!), quality of the apartment etc. I can't say for sure but a 2 bedroom would be approximately 4000 yuan a month.

Now is that a good deal? It seems not too bad when you factor in the free apartment. That should bring you near 30,000 yuan which is a nice amount of money and more that I am on.

Why not just ask for a cash contribution then find your own place?

Can I ask what are you giving up in SE Asia? I mean what is your current working conditions and salary?

[thomas_pynchon]

Thanks for your reply, the company has other branches but the office I would be teaching at is located in Haidian district of Beijing zhongguancun street. You mentioned that that is the most expensive part of Beijing, so presumably this is a very rich company, and I will need to negotiate with them about finding a (quiet!!) condo not too far from work.

I told them I would teach from Jan to end July (6month contract) which seemed fine with them, because they also want to see how I perform, and I presume the first three months are probation anyways.

They advertised the position for people with BA and 2 years experience at 25500RMB, I'm coming to them with an MA and 10 years experience, so the recruiter was the one who said they would pay for 'partial' accommodation, and without even an interview they wanted to know if I would take the job! But I will be meeting on skype with representatives in Beijing to talk about the position in more detail next week. Any suggestions on how to negotiate a deal like this? 25 contact hours seems a lot to me, although I know that is standard.

I am already back in my home country, what I left in SE asia was nothing to write home about, Int'l schools have the highest pay.

Thanks again for your feedback

[jimpellow]

The fact that they offered you the job up front shows desperation on their part, which is quite common in China these days. This puts you in the driver's seat.

The health insurance will come with your social tax contribution of 11.5%. That is beyond any local income tax which I can't answer for Beijing. You can get most of your social tax refunded if you apply for it just before you leave China, and by miracle, your school and the government complete the steps from their end.

The six months concerns me. Considering the expense in terms of time and money that schools must now make in obtaining a visa for you, my fear is that they will ask you to come on another visa. It will probably be an F as an educational consultant as. You will see how well that holds up if your school is raided for foreign devils with the wrong visa, which happens in Beijing.

You want to only arrive on a z-visa which will take time, money and frustration to complete. As it is Beijing where some of the pilot programs are occurring, you may be told that you can get your visa on arrival at the airport. Probably a green light but proceed with caution.

Per your remark about probation, Chinese labor law states they can only ask for one month per year of your initial contract.

Chinese high school students who are going to study overseas are a highly unmotivated group. It will be a long 25 hours. But what makes or breaks it for me is what they are expecting beyond that. You really want that in the contract. Never leave grey areas with the Chinese which I am sure you are familiar with having spent time in Asia.

Ordinarily, you need to front an incredible amount of money to procure an apartment in China. Because it is Beijing, you may be able to secure long-term corporate accommodation geared for the business and government market. Usually, very nice but pricey. Personally, I might look at a house share, or an agreement with a hotel or hostel considering it is for six months. I am not sure if this is possible with your residence permit.

The comment about a very quiet apartment made me chuckle. Mainland Chinese are the loudest people on Earth.

IMHO, Chinese schools like and prefer candidates with shiny credential and experience, but they often won't pay for them. Usually the people who make a good penny in China do so when they have a specialization the schools want, they place high value on themselves, and they are the ones who love least in the relationship.

Good luck!

[thomas_pynchon]

[creeper1]

The 6 month thing is weird. I never heard of 6 month contracts here. And also factor in that when you get housing it is usually a year long contract you sign with the agent. Yes you can leave at 6 months but you will lose your deposit.

I'd be more concerned about being on the right visa as observed by the other poster.

As for a "quiet" apartment. That just depends on luck. Your school will have no control on that. It depends on if your neighbours are loud are not. Also some of the construction here is not the best with thin walls letting through sounds.

How long are the classes? 1 hour long or 45 minutes? Can you repeat the same lesson several times a week or do you have to plan a brand spanking new one for each of the 25. If you can repeat the same lesson a few times then I think 25 classes isn't so bad.

Nobody can tell you what you should or shouldn't work for. It depends on what you think you are worth. For comparison EF (I know they are terrible employer and hire newbies) pay only 14,000 to their hires. My first job here was for 12,000 yuan a month and was with them.

The numbers seem ok to me especially if you get any paid vacation. Why not see if you can get them up to 27,000 yuan. It can't hurt to try.

[thomas_pynchon]

I will see if they will throw in a 2bd condo or house, or an additional 5000Yuan to cover accommodation, so that would be 30k Yuan altogether. Does that seem reasonable? There is no vacation pay, so that would be 6 months straight with just national holidays and the usual two days/w. I have never had to negotiate vacation before, should I expect that on a 6m contract? I also have a cat, which complicates things a bit.

They said that I can apply for a travel Visa to China, and the company will apply for a work Visa when I am in China. So what does that mean then?

[getbehindthemule]

I would go into this with some serious reservations. They seem a bit desperate to be honest. I'd be a bit wary of the visa situation also, from what you describe.
Can you get in contact with any other FTs that work there or have worked there? It may be even a case of an attractive salary but poor overall package (considering the contact hours). I know that you stated that they do not pay holidays, but I hope that they will provide airfare and are covering all visa related costs at least?
25 teaching hours/week seems a lot to me so duration of classes, as creeper1 stated, should be factored in. For example my teaching hours are 35minute periods which is pretty dreamy compared to 50minute periods for example. Also, are you free apart from those 25hours, ie. are there office hours?
Anyway push for the 5K housing allowance and I wish you only the best of luck if you decide to go for it!

[Big Worm]

From someone that has been around bj for awhile.

They said that I can apply for a travel Visa to China, and the company will apply for a work Visa when I am in China. So what does that mean then?

That means you will be working illegally. You can't get a work visa while you are here on tourist. You can't get a visa for six months as far as i know either. Yeah, you can leave halfway through, but there are the problems with immi if you try to come back...at least there used to be.

Housing is no joke. I wouldn't want to live in a place that was 4,000 in bj. zhongguangzun isn't exactly heart of downtown, but it is the IT area. You might be commuting quite far for that price. look online for realistic housing prices.

Salary is good. .. To good. But if you are on wrong visa, you have no recourse if things go wrong. Actually, this is china, you have no recourse anyways, so... They will probably tell you whatever you want to hear to get you here, because you are hosed then.

[asiannationmc]

a side note is that Beijing is ramping up the inspections on Philippine folk who are working while on a school visa and last week two or three bars were raided (Temple) and papers demanded and a small substance abuse cup "filling" was performed on those who were suspect. Head teachers of Chinese language classes and some managers are being tasked with keeping a record copy of residence permits and local residence permits...the odd things is some of the local campus security is tied to the local cop shop and now they are being employed to make occasional checks....expat flight is on going and local expat hosp. like Oasis are renting their dental spaces to dentist that are not on staff due to the lack of expats seeking dental care.... restaurants are loosing expat customers and local expat schools are renegotiating contracts for foreign teachers that are qualified ... salaries in Beijing seem to be increasing but so is the rent and cost of living...with the RMB losing ground the conversion is less appealing and should be accounted for in evaluation of employment.
The amount of time for a probate is determined by law unless contract differs so watch what you sign. As to switching from L to a residence permit .. it has been done but with the changing attitude towards foreigner work permits... and the new grading system that even the editor of Beijing magazine is subject to, I would tread lightly

[jimpellow]

Now that we indeed are sure that the school wants him to come on the wrong visa, I really would strongly suggest you chuck this job offer.

There is really too much that can go wrong these days with coming on the wrong visa, especially in Beijing.

Even if you were to agree on terms today, and they were one of the rare few to have their sh*t together, you are still talking some substantial time to get your z-visa in order. On top of this is the fact that they are changing some things and nobody really seems to know the yet latest process. In some jurisdictions they are not even processing paperwork at present due to the changes and confusion.

I am also increasingly doubtful that they will ever try to procure you the proper paperwork, especially as you are only agreeing to six months.

I have had experience with two programs like this one during my time in China. One was legitimate(for China), and the other a scam. Luckily I had had five years experience in the Middle Kingdom by then, so when the red flags came up I was able to avoid it with minimal suffering. These high school prep programs have increasingly seen their share of scams.

You have to take the Chinese school's perspective. They are Mainland Chinese and only see the RMB today. No teacher come January means no RMB for them. At the end of the day, you are only the tool to realize that. If you get tossed in jail, they really could care less. In fact, they will all pretend to have no idea who you are when the 50 police officers come marching in the school. The students will just stand there with their heads forward a foot from your face, overcome with curiosity, as you are marched out. The schools never seem to get punished at their end so continue to act this way. Even if they were punished for their bad behavior, it would deter the school owners very little as the Chinese don't feel the fire until it burns them.

[thomas_pynchon]

On site 7.5 hours workday. Basically what they provide is a distributed learning platform from overseas, so content is all given by the online tutor from over seas, w online course work, my role is to make sure they can do the work and pass the exams. Five subjects, same content, different classes.
Yes, they want me to come over on an L, wait while working for a month, then fly to Shanghai, and voila.
They said they would need me to stay until September, bc summer is their highest enrollment. So 9 months now, I think it might make more sense, then, to negotiate a year, they would be happy with that, then we could get the right visa, and I have a little more leverage to negotiate vacation and accommodation. At the moment they said they have only one other teacher, and they are not hiring more. So I suspect there has been some downsizing, they mentioned sometimes there is just 1-2 students at a time.

[twowheel]

[rogerwilco]

[thomas_pynchon]

Thanks for those ideas, what I could do then, is make an offer - Zvisa before I leave, accommodation included, some amount of holiday pay - in addition to what they have proposed already, the work itself seems not bad.