Job Discussion Forums

[Annemarie]

I really need some advice from someone not directly involved. I will try to be brief. My husband (a Turkish citizen with fluent english) and I (a native speaker from south africa) have been offered positions in a school through an agency. We are financially strapped here (Turkey) and were offered pre-paid tickets as well. But...we got, through email, contracts which states the agency as our employers when we know that we would be working for a school far from the city where they are situated. On top of this it came under our attention that this school isn't registered to employ foreigners so the agency has organised for another University in another city to send us an invitation letter in order for us to apply for a z-visa from here since the chinese embassy here does not grant tourist visas to turks individually. Now this all seems so illegal and what would our situation be in a case like this? Would you advice us to accept all of this and still go? We have no finances as a backup and the only reason we are still asking you is because we are trying to better our lives a little, economically.
I know that this is actually none of your business and would understand if you decline to comment but please we really cant decide for ourselves since we know so little about china and we are financially pressed to perhaps accept all and go.

[Guest]

Annemarie

The best person to answer you would be Roger- and he will no doubt do so.

If I were you, and in your situation, I think I would GO FOR IT. At least there are two of you to give each other support.

In my opinion, some things here are done in a rather dodgy way, but it all seems to wash out in the end. My feelings are that if it does not work out, you will be HERE, thanks to their paying for your air fares, and you could always find work teaching at another School, as there is always a high demand for "conversational English teachers" in China.

Alternatively, you could just get on the Internet and try and find another School which makes you feel more comfortable in the way they handle the situation, but that of course may take a little time - it all depends on how desperate you are to come here. However, most Schools do not offer to pay for your air fare until you have been teaching for 6 - 12 months, so that is why I feel inclined to encourage you to do it.

[cj750]

It would help to know the name of the agency...maybe someone has had experience. I would advise you to have a backup plan as you can see from the postings "there is a lot of trouble" in just coming over...are the tickets paid for up front..also the Visa dance around the law may not be wise...maybe good advice to still keep looking.

[Spiderman Too]

Some issues for you to think about:-

Employment agencies are not uncommon here in China. Usually, the agency has managed to secure a permit to employ foreigners and they sub-contract their employee English teachers to schools which can't or haven't yet obtained a permit.

Agencies tend to have lower recruiting standards and employ people from countries other than the 'Big 5' (U.S.A., Canada, Britain, Australia, New Zealand). The majority of reputable (for the want of a better word) schools and universities won't recruit outside of the 'Big 5' (although some schools do include South Africa).

The majority of complaints I have read on various forums appear to be against agencies and private schools.

It's very rare for an employer to offer to pay airfares upfront; they must be desperate for teachers. If this assumption is correct, the question arises as to why they can't attract 'premium' applicants, i.e. U.S.A., Canada, etc.

Upon arrival in China your 'Z' visa will be converted to a Foreigner Residence Permit and the visa becomes irrelevant. The Foreigner Residence Permit is of utmost importance. It shows that you are legally staying, and working, in China.

Technically (legally) you can only work in the province in which it was
issued, and only for the employer named in the F.R.P.. Also, you're supposed to be living at the address nominated in the F.R.P. and are required to notify the Foreign Affairs Office if you change address, even in the same city.

If, and I think it would be a BIG if, PBS officers came to the school you're going to work at AND saw you, they MIGHT ask to see your F.R.P.. You would then have a problem but how big-a-problem, I'm not sure. In all probability, you'll probably never be asked by anyone to show your
F.R.P. for the whole time you are in China (excluding insignificant occasions such as hotel accommodation, air travel, etc).

As a matter of interest, I once had to consult the Police over a problem
with another foreigner, which the Police helped to resolve amicably. BUT
they didn't ask to see my F.R.P., passport or any I.D. whatsoever.

In the event of a problem involving employment, a foreign teacher can normally turn to the Foreign Affairs Office for assistance.

If you have a problem with the employment agency or the school where you are working school you won't be able to (it would be unwise to) approach the Foreign Affairs Office for help. The F.A.O. would help you with a problem involving the school named in your F.R.P. but
you would be opening up a can of worms if you told them you were working for an employment agency and/or another school.

Finally, apparently there are many foreign teachers working in China without a 'Z' visa or F.R.P.. They have 12 month 'F' visas which are easily
obtainable in Hong Kong. But these teachers have no legal working status. If they have a problem with their school, too bad; no-one to turn to. Your situation would be similar.

[mr pink]

Dear Annemarie,

Don't worry about the visa. As soon as it is granted by the embassy in Turkey, it's as valid as all the others. They don't keep track of stuff like that. If they grant it, then it's good.

Now there are a number of ways to get the right visa according to the regular posters on this board. It sounds like you're trying to get a work visa in Turkey. What works for me EVERY time for myself and friends, is to come on a tourist visa and then let the school switch it over to a work visa after you arrive. This would eliminate the worry about sketchy paperwork. That's the company's problem. If the company can't deliver a work visa after you arrive, that's a different issue. But if you're limited on time, it's worth the risk. Not to be sarcastic, but people aren't deported for working illegally that often. It happens.

A word of caution. You're putting yourself in a precarious position if you come without much money. I'm glad to say I showed up at a school last week, took one look at it, and left the next morning happy I hadn't signed a contract before coming. Job hunting at the start of the semester isn't fun, but I would've been much worse off if I had stayed.

In sum, I agree with Rhonda. Take the plunge. If a school is willing to put up the money for air tickets, then they are taking a bigger risk than you are and so are probably legit enough to work for, even if for the short term.

Good luck,

mr pink

[Roger]

Annemarie,

sorry to read of your dilemma. For you I freel there is little need to worry since as a South African you can come here and move about relatively easily. Prior to 1992, South Africans couldn't set foot on PRC territory. This also means that mainland CHinese are quite clueless as to your culture and language - they all think Africans are black and poor...
You have to bear this in mind because unless you show them documentary evidence they will think you are an impostor. I am South African myself though born outside, and therefore holder of a different passport.

But I am concerned about your husband. As a Turk he will face a lot of extra pressure as you have already noted when he asked for a visa at the local embassy. I strongly advise AGAINST taking one chance without having any resources to fall back on or a second job option lined up.

Try to elicit information from relevant sources on whether your hubby can obtain visas in Hong Kong; can he sojourn there visa-free??? If not, forget it! If yes, he can always get a new six-motnh businessman's visa. This would, of course, mean he would be working illegally - but it's the way many choose.

I am not sure you two would fare better economically in China than in Turkey; what's more, a job here comes with a lot more job insecurity and instability than you might be used to.

Personally, I never endorse such shady operations as suggested to you by that recruiter. If you really want to get a reliable job offer from an agent I think there is only Buckland (read sepearte thread on this one)
.
Opinions on recruiters are divided but in general it is felt you don't need a go-between, and almost any agent here is a crook.

I am not sure how the two of you will stomach the inevitable culture shock. Mine was next to zer; but China ain't South Africa. And it ain't like Turkey either.

If you o come across other job offers from better sources, try to steer them towards hiring you in Guangdong or Peking rather than the boonies.

[Annemarie]

I declined the offer before i read your replies but i should have waited for it i see now... i thought no one would be bothered so i went ahead deciding on my own silly fears. Awfully regretful now but it might not be too late... i thank you all from the bottom of my heart and please hold thumbs its not too late to change the decision i made earlier...i'll keep you posted