|
Job Discussion Forums "The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
Blistering Zanazilz
Joined: 06 Jan 2018 Posts: 180
|
Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 2:09 am Post subject: Question on a clause |
|
|
This morning a student asked me a question about relative pronouns and clauses she recently came across. Here are her 2 examples:
1. We often visit our friends in New York. It isn't very far away. Using a non-restrictive clause this can become "We often visit our friends in New York, which isn't very far away."
2. She left the college. She spent four eventful years there. Using a non-restrictive clause this becomes "She left the college, where she spent four eventful years."
In example 1 the student wanted to write "We often visit our friends in New York, where isn't very far away" since "where" usually signifies location, but I pointed out that's incorrect (should be which). I couldn't give her a reason why, but if anyone here can help with an explanation I'd appreciate it. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bograt
Joined: 12 Nov 2014 Posts: 331
|
Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 3:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
I'd explain this by saying 'where' is used if there is an indirect object ie 'to which' or 'in which', not only for locations.
E.g. compare 'I stayed in a hotel' and 'I visited a hotel.'
That's the hotel where we stayed - That's the hotel which we visited.
In the second sentence she spent 4 years 'in' the college, so you need 'where'.
However in the first sentence New York is the subject - New York is far away, so 'where' is not used. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010 Posts: 11454 Location: The real world
|
Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 4:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
Blistering Zanazilz wrote: |
In example 1 the student wanted to write "We often visit our friends in New York, where isn't very far away" since "where" usually signifies location, but I pointed out that's incorrect (should be which). I couldn't give her a reason why, but if anyone here can help with an explanation I'd appreciate it. |
Consider the following: "She left the college, where she spent four eventful years."
"The college" is a place (noun) in this context, as in "the place where she spent four eventful years." However, where is a subordinate conjunction, which transitions or joins a subordinate clause to a main clause. In this context, it is also used to refer to the place (college).
Perhaps the best way to present it is with the following:
"She left the college. It is where she spent four eventful years."
"She left the college, which is where she spent four eventful years."
"She left the college, where she spent four eventful years."
In the last example, which is omitted because where indicates the location but also that an action or event occurs/occurred (i.e., spent).
The student's sample sentence: "We often visit our friends in New York, where isn't very far away."
"We often visit our friends in New York. It isn't very far away."
"We often visit our friends in New York, which isn't very far away."
In this context, which just gives further info about New York.
Anyone else have a different explanation? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
fluffytwo
Joined: 24 Sep 2016 Posts: 139
|
Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 2:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
Has the student actually thought about the meaning of '(W)here isn't far away' (which here isn't a question, and an odd-sounding fragment compared to '(W)hich isn't far away', which at least "follows on" and very straightforwardly from what precedes it).
But hey, let's change the first example sentence(s) so 'where' becomes acceptable: We often visit our friends in New York, where <they> have a much richer social life (=than they did in e.g. Dayton, Ohio). There is an obvious parallel here with She regretfully left the college, where <she>'d spent four eventful years (and coming full circle, how about She regretfully left the college, which she'd spent four eventful years at/?in ('in' makes it sound like a prison eh. I'll leave it up to you to decide whether the..."stranded"? preposition is fine, but not stranding could leave things open to [unlikely] questions of We often visit our friends in New York, ?in which...*)).
Tl:dr is that we don't usually predicate much about '(W)here' itself (other than in questions about where BE, and/or [to] or from or [[at]], etc), though we may of course say what people or other subjects happen to do wherever. Note also that the substitution in the first sentence(s) isn't that different ultimately from the "movement" as it were of the 'there' to the 'where' position in the second one(s).
*If the string continued 'in which city...' (a bit like saying 'in winter, in December'?) then a) that would sound silly and stuffy and b) 'where' is a perfectly succinct "alternative" for as I say (re)introducing people or other subjects (and thus more action) rather than the "place" per se. Another full circle. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
fluffytwo
Joined: 24 Sep 2016 Posts: 139
|
Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
So, what did the student make of the explanations offered here? Were they satisfactory, or still lacking in some way? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling. Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|