|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
kzjohn
Joined: 30 Apr 2014
Posts: 277
|
 Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:26 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| rxk22 wrote: |
...
I think many eikaiwa teachers dumb down their English more than they teach their students. ...
| kzjohn wrote: |
That sounds like a simple generalization, can I ask what it's based on?
...
Can you offer how to decide which is true? Any evidence? |
Simple, data gathering and surveying. When you meet someone do you ask questions? I do, and I ask similar ones as I collect data and try to get meaning from it.
I also have had the opportunity to watch many classes and have people come in for interviews, and watched them teach.
If one is measured and knows what to ask and how to ask it, it's very easy to get a fairly sizable survey. I'd say that my survey which is probably around 100 is a fairly accurate survey for regular eikaiwa.
Again how do I know? I don't, not for sure, but from seeing a myriad of classes from a variety of teachers, I am fairly confident in my opinion |
Sorry, but that sounds anecdotal. Or have you published that "research"?
| Quote: |
| Edit I'll look later but there are alt as well as eikaiwa training videos where they clearly mix Japanese and English in live classes |
Is that your metric for this imprecise, undefined "dumbing down" that you've mentioned? So anytime there's a JTE in a class that uses some Japanese, that class has been 'dumbed down'?
Do you follow (and do you want everyone else to follow) Gattegno's methods? Is that your standard? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
yurii
Joined: 12 Jan 2017
Posts: 106
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TokyoLiz wrote: |
Yurii,
About those American teachers https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43623216
It’s not always a question of teacher competence, but economic and political conditions that result in teachers leaving. Oklahoma has the lowest teacher salary in the U.S. |
Thanks TokyoLiz. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TokyoLiz
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: Tokyo, Japan
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Edit I'll look later but there are alt as well as eikaiwa training videos where they clearly mix Japanese and English in live classes |
There are so many factors at play here. Is the person leading the class bilingual, a JSL or ESL speaker? What’s the purpose of students’ L1? What’s your position on L1 use?
How about your position on I+1? How do you train teachers to provide I+1? What’s your take on interlanguage?
There’s so much more to this than “dumbing down.” |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| TokyoLiz wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Edit I'll look later but there are alt as well as eikaiwa training videos where they clearly mix Japanese and English in live classes |
There are so many factors at play here. Is the person leading the class bilingual, a JSL or ESL speaker? What’s the purpose of students’ L1? What’s your position on L1 use?
How about your position on I+1? How do you train teachers to provide I+1? What’s your take on interlanguage?
There’s so much more to this than “dumbing down.” |
These were all native speakers.
L1 is not something to be ignored. It should be used from time to time to give a basis to what they are learning, and to correct or realign what they know.
I have zero problems using it, L1 that is when it is needed. I don't believe in English only no matter what scenario, esp at the lower level.
How do I train a teacher to do I+1? Well that is a complicated answer, but it involves being intuitive and seeing how the students respond. By being flexible and aware, it is possible to stay I+1 for the most part.
By dumbing down, I also said pidgin. I have seen some awful mixing of the languages, which doesn't help at all. "Are you元気？" To "I like sunny" , to just total disdain for grammar to the point where it is Japanese grammar structure with English vocab.
There is a difference between making things simple and dumbing things down.
I dislike using interlanguage. If the students develop it on their own, that is one thing. To actively encourage and even in some cases to teach it? No. Interlang happens, most learners will probably develop it to some degree. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kzjohn
Joined: 30 Apr 2014
Posts: 277
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
As for mixing Japanese and English, horror of horrors, besides the inevitable ones like genki and gomi, when the girls were small and changing into their PJs, I’d offer “Put your zubbies on the zabbies,” or they’d ask, “Zubbies on the zabbies, daddy?”
(hint: ズボン/座布団) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TokyoLiz
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: Tokyo, Japan
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
rxk22 wrote
| Quote: |
By dumbing down, I also said pidgin. I have seen some awful mixing of the languages, which doesn't help at all. "Are you元気？" To "I like sunny" , to just total disdain for grammar to the point where it is Japanese grammar structure with English vocab.
There is a difference between making things simple and dumbing things down. |
Um...you observed native English speaking eikaiwa staff doing this?
My late Buddhist priest friend shouted at me and my friends THINK! Very un-Zen. His point was, think about consequences of your actions for yourself and others. We’re talking about know-nothing people allegedly teaching English to young learners.
Kzjohn’s cute interlanguage is sweet!
But that’s home language and an aspect of multilingual households.
My multilingual family spoke Russian, German, English and Weegie mashed together. Yer no gettin’ мороженое tonight. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fluffytwo
Joined: 24 Sep 2016
Posts: 139
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
I don't mind the odd bit of language mixing as a joke, especially if the students get it (e.g. I might've said at least the once that I need to "genki myself up"), but it's ultimately idiolectal despite whatever broader generalizations might be drawn (plus it's sort of our job to reverse as much so-called "fossilization" as possible, right?). There's enough to do just getting the appropriate, relatively standard input lined up and, in terms of speech especially, finding communicatively convincing, functional-enough ways to convey and practice it.
As for JTEs using Japanese, yes, they overdo it (like a warped mirror image of Direct Methodista ELTers), which adds insult to the injury they and/or the hallowed Monbucor!horrorshow textbooks do to the supposed "target" language.
Grrr LOL. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kzjohn
Joined: 30 Apr 2014
Posts: 277
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
| fluffytwo wrote: |
...the hallowed Monbucor!horrorshow textbooks do to the supposed "target" language.
... |
I realize there is a selection, but I thought our daughters' JHS and HS texts were pretty good--the HS readers especially so.
You can argue about the path, and how to get to the top of the mountain, but the top looked pretty darned good to me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TokyoLiz
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: Tokyo, Japan
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Monbucor!horrorshow |
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kzjohn
Joined: 30 Apr 2014
Posts: 277
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="rxk22"]...
...total disdain ...
Uh, you do realize that that is your personal projection/interpretation?
(again, a negative one) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| TokyoLiz wrote: |
Um...you observed native English speaking eikaiwa staff doing this?
My late Buddhist priest friend shouted at me and my friends THINK! Very un-Zen. His point was, think about consequences of your actions for yourself and others. We’re talking about know-nothing people allegedly teaching English to young learners.
Kzjohn’s cute interlanguage is sweet!
But that’s home language and an aspect of multilingual households.
My multilingual family spoke Russian, German, English and Weegie mashed together. Yer no gettin’ мороженое tonight. |
Yes, I have seen all kinds of compromises in order to gain understanding.
I agree with your late friend. Everything you do when you teach can have meaning. Unless you purposely or though neglect make it meaningless.
You can take a 30 min lesson, and I fill it up with all kinds of grammar and phrases, and have a fast paced class. Or at my old eikaiwa, I saw the trainer make games that basically didn't involve any real communication. Was a ninja game, and the point was to be quiet iirc.
At my kid's school they have 40 or so min lessons. I watched one. There is almost no English being used. Classroom control is an issue, yes but you can cover more than a sea animals, colors, numbers and " I like dolphin"in 40 or 50 mins.
I sincerely believe that adding filler is just laziness. If you can get a flow going, you can cover and review a great deal even in 30 mins.
I remember you saying that about your family. DId it ever hinder your other languages, mixing three separate ones?
With my kids I don't allow any mixing of the languages, I feel that leads to bad habits. Also Japanese and English grammar are very different, so saying "Let's 休憩" to be is very odd from an English POV. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="kzjohn"]
| rxk22 wrote: |
...
...total disdain ...
Uh, you do realize that that is your personal projection/interpretation?
(again, a negative one) |
You like data, here https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3272096
that is why I used the word disdain. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TokyoLiz
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: Tokyo, Japan
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| I saw the trainer make games that basically didn't involve any real communication. Was a ninja game, and the point was to be quiet iirc. |
I've seen nonsense like this. An ALT I observed, who supposedly had CELTA training and appeared to be reasonably intelligent, managed to miss the lesson objective for a Gr 5 lesson plan indicated in Monkasho material, never confirmed the kids knew what he was saying, or what the audio was about, and had the kids play sugoroku on a textbook page in groups, with no pedagogical or language purpose indicated. I heard the kids talking among themselves and asking the JTE, what is the guy saying?
Another time, a Japanese English department head observed my JHS Gr 1 lesson. My students learned adjectives to describe size, shape and color, and a short transaction about selecting fruits and vegetables. My students sustained simultaneous practice, me coaching, for 15 minutes at a time. The Japanese teacher was incredulous. The students can speak English?!
| Quote: |
| I remember you saying that about your family. DId it ever hinder your other languages, mixing three separate ones? |
My brother lives between a few countries and speaks two additional languages at a near native level, and he's conversant in two more. My cousin lives in another city in Japan and is near native in Japanese. I have JLPT N2. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fluffytwo
Joined: 24 Sep 2016
Posts: 139
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| kzjohn wrote: |
| I realize there is a selection, but I thought our daughters' JHS and HS texts were pretty good--the HS readers especially so. |
I bet if you had to teach from them day in and out that you'd start to notice the flaws. And that any foreigners listed are usually mere advisors at most rather than actual co-authors. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yurii
Joined: 12 Jan 2017
Posts: 106
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kzjohn wrote: |
| fluffytwo wrote: |
...the hallowed Monbucor!horrorshow textbooks do to the supposed "target" language.
... |
I realize there is a selection, but I thought our daughters' JHS and HS texts were pretty good--the HS readers especially so.
You can argue about the path, and how to get to the top of the mountain, but the top looked pretty darned good to me. |
What book do they use? By the way in Japan do they ever use Cambridge, Oxford, Pearson press textbooks or just their own ones (i.e. made by Japanese people)?
| fluffytwo wrote: |
I bet if you had to teach from them day in and out that you'd start to notice the flaws. And that any foreigners listed are usually mere advisors at most rather than actual co-authors. |
But, I guess as a teacher you don't want the textbook to be too perfect, lol, otherwise you're just a presenter. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
