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kzjohn
Joined: 30 Apr 2014
Posts: 277
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 Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| What book do they use? |
New Horizon, at some point, one title that I remember, which I think is used by somewhat less than half of the schools here. Sorry, I can't remember the exact level for this series. Also, our two opted for 理系, and that probably affected both the books used and hours per week on language (or the type of skills instruction).
My school took me off entrance exam prep quite a while back when our older girl became third year HS, but before that the head of the admissions center had regularly given me multiple copies of HS texts, for me to pass out to the other members of the committee, so that we could tailor our tests to those. (A very reasonable request, IMO.)
BTW, I'm quite familiar with J D Brown's 90s-era critiques of uni entrance exams. I've heard him talk a couple times locally, and tried to write a little on testing. The situation for students is quite different now--at that time there would be several thousand applicants and tests were the only way to practically filter them. Now (for a smaller school like mine), interviews are primary (with a few other things being recognized). And pretty much everyone gets in.
Last edited by kzjohn on Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kzjohn
Joined: 30 Apr 2014
Posts: 277
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:33 am Post subject: |
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[quote="rxk22"]
| kzjohn wrote: |
| rxk22 wrote: |
...
...total disdain ...
Uh, you do realize that that is your personal projection/interpretation?
(again, a negative one) |
You like data, here https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3272096
that is why I used the word disdain. |
That's a nice news story, and I think it's good that Japan's overall TOEIC level has improved--it used to be 475, so about a 40 point increase.
Also, tho 20 points behind Taiwan, Japan is just a single point off from both Korea and Hong Kong. Kind of a surprise there.
**
But I don't see how that news story provides any reason, basis, or explanation for using the above word. Could you maybe explain a little more? |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| TokyoLiz wrote: |
I've seen nonsense like this. An ALT I observed, who supposedly had CELTA training and appeared to be reasonably intelligent, managed to miss the lesson objective for a Gr 5 lesson plan indicated in Monkasho material, never confirmed the kids knew what he was saying, or what the audio was about, and had the kids play sugoroku on a textbook page in groups, with no pedagogical or language purpose indicated. I heard the kids talking among themselves and asking the JTE, what is the guy saying?
Another time, a Japanese English department head observed my JHS Gr 1 lesson. My students learned adjectives to describe size, shape and color, and a short transaction about selecting fruits and vegetables. My students sustained simultaneous practice, me coaching, for 15 minutes at a time. The Japanese teacher was incredulous. The students can speak English?!
My brother lives between a few countries and speaks two additional languages at a near native level, and he's conversant in two more. My cousin lives in another city in Japan and is near native in Japanese. I have JLPT N2. |
That is how most ALTs and Eikaiwa operate. There is a bit of teaching theory, go from intro to in four classes have production. In reality, it's intro and production in the same class.
Don't make things complicated, KISS. Also be aware of your kids. You don't need to just power through a class, and finish the materials, which happens a lot. Anyhow, If I have more than one kid not understand, I stop and reteach or review. Even 25% being lost, just means that the next tie it'll be even harder to teach.
I was an ALT again recently, and I was shocked at how poorly, esp in ELEM the teaching theory is. We'd intro a topic and grammar point, and make the kids walk around and use it. The entire sentence plus the variables is new, so of course most couldn't do it.
LOL, yes it's shocking that if done correctly kids can produce. Output isn't an impossibility. It just takes a foundation, otherwise it doesn't happen if you skip to output.
OK, wow that's really interesting, very cool family there. |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| fluffytwo wrote: |
I bet if you had to teach from them day in and out that you'd start to notice the flaws. And that any foreigners listed are usually mere advisors at most rather than actual co-authors. |
They have OK English, but they sound like there were written in Japanese and translated into English. A lot of what and how they say things can be awkward. |
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TokyoLiz
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| LOL, yes it's shocking that if done correctly kids can produce. Output isn't an impossibility. It just takes a foundation, otherwise it doesn't happen if you skip to output. |
Spot on.
I worked closely as an administrator at elementary schools in my city for a few years. Using the Monkasho texts available at the time, Hi Friends 1 and 2, I taught the kids a scaffolded conversation pattern, interactions and transactions.
I've got video of my Gr 5 students sustaining an interactive activity for 20 minutes entirely in English. We achieved this with lots of modeling, confirming they understood the meaning by having them repeat back in Japanese, drilling the functional language, and then asking the students to trial the interaction, evaluate what they could do better, and then doing it again.
It's not rocket science, but it takes a lot of theory, adaptation of the material to suit the constraints - one hour a week with no English-speaking staff besides me - and a long plan, usually 3-5 weeks per unit. The elementary homeroom teachers drilled the functions with the audio when I wasn't available. They were willing to be co-learners, demonstrating that it's totally doable.
We even pulled parents in when we had open school, asking them to do the interactions with their own kids. |
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kzjohn
Joined: 30 Apr 2014
Posts: 277
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:22 am Post subject: |
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[quote="rxk22"]
| kzjohn wrote: |
| rxk22 wrote: |
...
...total disdain ...
Uh, you do realize that that is your personal projection/interpretation?
(again, a negative one) |
You like data, here https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3272096
that is why I used the word disdain. |
Here are some different numbers, straight from ETS instead of a news article.
https://www.ets.org/s/toeic/pdf/2017-report-on-test-takers-worldwide.pdf
Look at page five to see ETS's numbers for Japan, Taiwan, ROK, and HK.
**
Does this (probably more reliable!) data affect what you think?
Still disdain, or something else? |
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fluffytwo
Joined: 24 Sep 2016
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:33 am Post subject: |
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kzjohn, what rxk said (partway down pg 5, before you two got onto discussing international test cricket scores) was that he has seen 'total disdain for grammar to the point where it is Japanese grammar structure with English vocab'. So he was talking about some teachers' apparent disdain for language(s). His personal "disdain" or lack thereof for anything including such teachers or rather teaching is beside the point, and not what he said.
Anyway, I'm not sure I've seen anything quite that bad (well, not unless JTE blathering in almost unending Japanese counts; explicating Japanese structure in terms of word-for-word then idiomatic translation into English would however make sense in comparative linguistics or TJFL), but I've certainly pondered or indeed questioned a fair bit of skewy "input" myself.
How else are "we" to ever see the errors of "our" ways? Being part of a supposed profession means calling out certain stuff (such as arguable excesses) at least indirectly, even if it isn't anyone in our immediate circle inflicting it.
Last edited by fluffytwo on Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:47 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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yurii
Joined: 12 Jan 2017
Posts: 106
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| rxk22 wrote: |
| fluffytwo wrote: |
I bet if you had to teach from them day in and out that you'd start to notice the flaws. And that any foreigners listed are usually mere advisors at most rather than actual co-authors. |
They have OK English, but they sound like there were written in Japanese and translated into English. A lot of what and how they say things can be awkward. |
Why don't they use textbooks written by natives (or is this a silly question)? In my school we use the Think series by Cambridge. It's not perfect but like I wrote earlier you don't want the textbook to be too perfect - if it is you'll not need / want to create stuff yourself.
Also, I was looking on EF and curiously (according to them) Japan had "moderate proficiency" up to 2015 but since then has dropped to "low proficiency". Why is that I wonder? |
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fluffytwo
Joined: 24 Sep 2016
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Yurii, AFAIK the textbooks that public schools use have to be approved by the Ministry of Education. It obviously "wouldn't do" for them to use "outside" stuff, and I doubt there'd be enough in it for genuine outsiders to be willing to work too closely to that brief anyway.
| yurii on page 5 wrote: |
| But, I guess as a teacher you don't want the textbook to be too perfect, lol, otherwise you're just a presenter. |
Oh, I'm all for better books, as we can all do with a bit of an easier life sometimes.
I'd even suggest that were the textbook good enough, there'd be less to little point going to most classes, at least for that level. Few ELT titles spring to mind here though, if only because they aren't usually designed for self study (Murphy and similar is more supplementary than main) and thus lack much explanation in any L1 (and L1s plural, obviously not).
Which brings us back somewhat (albeit warily) to locally-produced LL texts. |
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yurii
Joined: 12 Jan 2017
Posts: 106
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| kzjohn wrote: |
New Horizon, at some point, one title that I remember, which I think is used by somewhat less than half of the schools here. Sorry, I can't remember the exact level for this series. |
Thanks for info.
| kzjohn wrote: |
| Also, our two opted for 理系, and that probably affected both the books used and hours per week on language (or the type of skills instruction). |
Just curious: why don't you write this in English?
| fluffytwo wrote: |
| Yurii, AFAIK the textbooks that public schools use have to be approved by the Ministry of Education. It obviously "wouldn't do" for them to use "outside" stuff, and I doubt there'd be enough in it for genuine outsiders to be willing to work too closely to that brief anyway. |
Oh ok thanks for the info.
| Quote: |
| Oh, I'm all for better books, as we can all do with a bit of an easier life sometimes. |
So you just want to go from page 1-100 without any of your imprint on the lesson? (Or are you just playing devil's advocate  ). A textbook becomes like a straight jacket and some teachers (or should I say presenters?) simply go from page 1 to page 100 without bothering to add a thing. It doesn't take that much skill or expertise to do and essentially it means you don't even have to plan. If you finish on exercise 3 you start next time on exercise 4 lol. It makes life too easy.Of course we need textbooks for listening exercises, nice reading exercises and so on but we can just dip in and out of it and supplement/replace activities. So, my point is if it were so good we wouldn't actually need to do this and wouldn't be developing ourselves professionally.
| Quote: |
I'd even suggest that were the textbook good enough, there'd be less to little point going to most classes, at least for that level. |
I guess people like going to a language class for the interaction with fellow students / teacher and they probably aren't motivated to self-study.
| Quote: |
Few ELT titles spring to mind here though, if only because they aren't usually designed for self study (Murphy and similar is more supplementary than main) and thus lack much explanation in any L1 (and L1s plural, obviously not).
Which brings us back somewhat (albeit warily) to locally-produced LL texts. |
When is the last time you took a look at an English textbook? |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| fluffytwo wrote: |
I bet if you had to teach from them day in and out that you'd start to notice the flaws. |
This is the case with any textbook, yes? I have never taught solely from a textbook, for this very reason.
| fluffytwo wrote: |
| And that any foreigners listed are usually mere advisors at most rather than actual co-authors. |
This is just not true. While I am not a textbook author, I know two foreign co-authors of MEXT-approved K-12 textbooks. Both were much more than mere advisors.
Also, there are currently over 60 English textbooks approved for K-12 use. A number are sitting on my desk now as I type this. (I'm currently doing a study on this topic.) Some are better than others, certainly, but none are bad in the sense discussed in this thread. E.g., the English models are correct--no grammar and spelling errors I can find--and both the progression and supporting exercises logically presented.
How these textbooks are used in the classroom can be a problem. Too often, the textbook becomes either a crutch (for JTEs with low English skills) or a weapon used to beat students into submission (with JTEs focusing on the Japanese supplementary explanations rather than on the target language). Interestingly enough, MEXT did a national survey on this just a few years back. A surprising number of JTEs answered that they ignore the textbook exercises and just do what they want--including doing no English conversation in oral communication classes, and requiring no writing in writing classes.  |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| kzjohn wrote: |
As for mixing Japanese and English, horror of horrors, besides the inevitable ones like genki and gomi, when the girls were small and changing into their PJs, I’d offer “Put your zubbies on the zabbies,” or they’d ask, “Zubbies on the zabbies, daddy?”
(hint: ズボン/座布団) |
Oh, the horror! What about language purity? How could your kids have ever overcome this...mixing? |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| yurii wrote: |
By the way in Japan do they ever use Cambridge, Oxford, Pearson press textbooks or just their own ones (i.e. made by Japanese people)? |
But they don't just use textbooks made by Japanese people. Also, regarding the bold, maybe because most Cambridge, Oxford, Pearson textbooks suck as well? I mean, I'm friends with the OUP book rep for my region, and so have tried and tried to find a single OUP textbook to use in any of my classes. Without exception, the books are mindnumbingly dull, not to mention UK-centric to the point that I find myself humming "God Save the Queen" while looking through them. Sorry, but hard pass here. |
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fluffytwo
Joined: 24 Sep 2016
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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The last time I looked at an English textbook? Just now LOL ( http://www.cambridge.org/us/cambridgeenglish/catalog/secondary/think ), to check out that series that you mentioned, Yurii. I'm afraid it's all very worthy and brought me out in a right old rash, as if little headway has been made since Headway. Be honest now, it isn't a patch on the englishdroid2 site's Satanic Units now, is it. Give me books like this any day (albeit for Chinese, somewhat more adult in approach, and prioritizing the spoken language first and foremost): https://www.chinese-forums.com/forums/topic/46593-our-favourite-textbooks/?do=findComment&comment=353297
Tell you what Taikibansei, why not type up all the exemplars for tag questions from all those books you currently have sitting on your desk so we can decide for ourselves how good they all are. Shouldn't be more than say 20 minute's work, right? I'm trusting they provide a reliable guide in the (teacher's) text to the required intonation, or that you can obtain the necessary audio if in doubt. Hopefully there'll be nothing as inappropriate (indeed, completely incorrect) as "It's a beautiful day, ^isn't it?^" (the beauty of such weather could hardly be in any doubt as to need actual checking!), or as pushy-sounding as "You'll come to my party, ^won't you?^". (Both true examples I noted [heard the audio for] in duff stuff like Sunshine back in the day).
I think Liz covered stuff like "zubbies on the zabbies" with her 'But that’s home language and an aspect of multilingual households' (i.e. not that relevant for classrooms). |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| kzjohn wrote: |
BTW, I'm quite familiar with J D Brown's 90s-era critiques of uni entrance exams. I've heard him talk a couple times locally, and tried to write a little on testing. The situation for students is quite different now--at that time there would be several thousand applicants and tests were the only way to practically filter them. Now (for a smaller school like mine), interviews are primary (with a few other things being recognized). And pretty much everyone gets in. |
I think it unfortunate that this key point is getting overlooked (or ignored) by many posters here. Textbook content, university admission criteria, exam assessment methodology, etc., etc., have all undergone huge changes since the early 1990s. Most of these changes represent significant improvements. Perhaps accordingly, currently over one-third (262) of Japan’s 781 universities offer English Medium Instruction (EMI) for subject content, an almost 38% increase from 2008. Nineteen universities (38 schools/departments) now offer sufficient classes in English to allow students to graduate without taking additional classes in Japanese, with applicant numbers at these institutions increasing yearly.
I mean, some of the criticisms being leveled here haven't been true in Japan for...decades.
To be continued (due to the 300 word limit).... |
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