Job Discussion Forums

[brsmith15]

Am I correct in assuming that if your re-entry visa (F, Z) has expired, but not your temporary residence permit or your foreign experts certificate, that you can still travel within China?

I know you can't enter, leave, or travel through China, but I get different stories depending on whom I'm asking.

Many thanks.[/b]

[millie]

temporary residence permit (ie green book) validity date is the only important one for your legal presence in China on a Z visa.
M

[Louis]

Yup.

[cheekygal]

Your Z or F visa could be just for one month. But your EXPERTS PERMIT and TEMPORARY RESIDENCE PERMIT are to be for as long as you stay in China. In case if you want to leave and come back your company can apply for RE-ENTRY VISA for you with a single entry - to leave and to come back.

[bukowski1234]

When I inquired about multiple entries the consulate in Washington, DC told me (in a fax) that though my Z visa was good for a single entry, my residence permit allows me to exit and reenter multiple times.

Whether the residence permit merely makes me eligible to apply for further documentation allowing me to exit and reenter or if it is the residence permit itself which allows me multiple entry is not clear.

The consulate failed to explain how this can be.

[cheekygal]

you would still need a re-entry visa I have been in China for 3 years now and I was told at the Embassy back home lots of things which turned out to be different right on the spot Single entry is single entry - once you leave the country you would need another visa to come back.

[bullitt]

I will be coming over on an L visa(to be changed to a Z) can I get an expert permit and a temporary residence permit on an L visa?(I have a bachelors and a doctorate degree)

[ymmv]

OK, let's summarize and review Visas ... in a long-winded, but organized manner, shall we?

1. A visa, any visa, is permission to ENTER China.

2. A Z-Visa is a "work visa" which allows you to ENTER China AND work here legally. Only certain schools and organizations are authorized to sponsor foreigners for Z-Visas. They must be licensed and authorized to sponsor them and must apply, on your behalf, to the local Foreign Affairs Dept., and the Education or Labor Ministry to issue a "Letter of Invitation" to you. They will then send you that official, chopped "Letter of Invitation" along with, perhaps, another chopped document indicating their authority to issue letters of invitation. You then take this to your local Chinese embassy or consulate and apply for your Z-visa.

3. An L visa is a tourist visa; an F visa is a "business" visa which means you have your own business, or work for a foreign-owned company, or are are here on business or "consultation" at the invitation of a Chinese company. There is also a student visa (X?) which allows you to study in a school here. Technically (legally) you are not permitted to be gainfully employed in China under any of these 3 visas. (But hold your comments until this is further explained in Step 11).

4. If you have a SINGLE-ENTRY Z visa, generally there is a VALID UNTIL DATE on the visa. That is the expiration date of your permission to ENTER China. Generally, it is about 90 days from the date the visa is stamped in your passport. In other words, that is the LAST DAY in which you must ENTER China. If you ENTER China within that time, they will stamp an ENTRY DATE on your Z-visa specifying the date and port you entered through. The visa now becomes invalid (you can't use it to enter China again because....you have already entered China). Skip to Step 7 to see what happens next.

5.If you do not ENTER China by the VALID UNTIL DATE on your Z-visa (for example, your travel plans are delayed), the visa expires and you cannot ENTER China under that visa. You'll have to go through the whole process again and get a new Z-Visa.

6. The other 3 visas have fixed expiration dates. The expiration date on THOSE visas is the LAST day you can REMAIN in China. This is the source of so much of the confusion - why the question keeps being put by the newbies and why the advice from the oldies differs. Different visas - different results. Single-entry Z-visa dates are ENTRY dates. L, F and X visas (and multi-enrty Z-Visas-see Step 12) are EXIT dates. Is that clear?

7. Now...once you ENTER China on your single-entry Z-visa within the VALID UNTIL DATE, it is cancelled and you are authorized to work ONLY for the school or organizaton which sponsored that Z-visa. You are then required (or your new employer will do it for you) to apply for THE RESIDENCE PERMIT within 30 days of the date you ACTUALLY ENTERED China. The Residence Permit is, depending on where you are at, either a small green booklet or a small, greenish piece of paper. That document is issued by the PSB. You (or your school) has 30 days FROM THE DATE YOU ACTUALLY ENTERED CHINA under the Z-Visa (not the VALID UNTIL DATE), to obtain the Residency Permit. THAT is your permission to reside in remain in China. The VALID UNTIL DATE on the Z-visa is now meaningless. In other words, THE RESIDENCE PERMIT trumps the Z-visa.

8. If you or your school does NOT obtain the RESIDENCY PERMIT within the 30 days following your ENTRY DATE under the Z-Visa, you are illegal and the Z-Visa's VALID UNTIL DATE controls because you have no residency permit with which to trump it. You are now illegal and risk a 500 RMB/day fine for overstaying your visa beyond the VALID UNTIL DATE. If you get the Residency Permit, the VALID UNTIL DATE in your Z-Visa is meaningless. You DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT need to "extend" your Z-visa's VALID UNTIL DATE once you have the residency permit. This is the greatest source of questions and confusion that newbies have.

9. The Z-Visa follows the employer. So if you enter on a Z-visa sponsored by one employer, and decide to take a job with a different employer, you are going to have problems.

10. REVIEW: If you do everything right, and enter on a legitimate Z-visa and legitimately get a RESIDENCE PERMIT based on the Z-visa, the expiry date on the Z-visa becomes meaningless and the RESIDENCE PERMIT expiry date controls. You just need to keep that RESIDENCE PERMIT current for as long as you reside here. If you change jobs, you need to change the residence permit. (The Z-visa is irrelevant at this point). But in changing jobs, remember that the residency permit follows the employer. If you piss off the last employer, you may not be able to have your residency permit extended.

ADDENDUM:

11. Because of the cost and paperwork that institutions who are authorized to offer Z-Visa Letters of Invitation are required to go through, AND because in the past, some foreigners have not followed through, though they were sent all the papers, or the foreigner showed up and wasn't quite up to snuff, some institutions, who are otherwise authorized to grant Z-Visa Letters of Invitation, decided that it wasn't in there best interests to jump through all the hoops required to issue Z-visas. They wanted a live, hot body on the ground at their institution before they went through the perambulations of securing the Z-visa and Residence Permit.

And some of the local governmental units agreed. They were tired of issuing the proper documents only to turn up empty-handed, viz-a-viz foreign teachers. So some of the local governments loosened the rules at the behest of the issuing institutions. Why waste time applying for Z-visa documents when the schmucks don't show up. Or those who do show up are schmucks. So in the last couple of years, in some localities, institutions have told the potentials to just show up on an L or F visa and they will get it converted to a Z. This was done with the tacit cooperaton of the local government. Since those particular institutions have the authority to do it, the locals agreed. That is why the Z-visa info changed over the last two years. The advice from foreigners to foreigners was: secure your Z-visa before you got here; don't trust anyone who says they can convert an L or F to a Z. But as mentioned, local rules were relaxed in that regard and in many places it now became possible, in fact preferential from the employers standpoint, to get you here on an L or F and get it converted to a Z once you were here and on the ground.

The caveat is that other institutions, schlock language schools that were not authorized, began to "follow suit" (a typical Chinese tradiion) and "advised" potentials, "Oh, don't worry, we can convert an L". Not true. But there was no way to tell from afar whether your "employer" had such authority until you were here... and your L or F WASN'T converted timely.

Now, Beijing and many provinces are reversing themselves recently due to the fact that the unauthorized schools have been using this ploy. They are going back to the rules of a few years ago whereby an L or an F cannot be converted in country. You must leave. And, from what I hear, if you try to sort out your mess in Hong Kong, now, they are getting stricter, too. I have heard, but don't know for a fact, that if you are trying to convert a Z-visa to a new Z-visa, in line with the mainland rules, a release letter will be necessary.

12. CAVEAT: The foregoing advice is based on SINGLE-ENTRY Z-VISAS. If you sprung for a multi-entry Z-VISA, I think there IS an expiration date on it and that is the LAST day you can use it to come and go.

13. Once you have used your original SINGLE-ENTRY Z-VISA to ENTER China, it becomes worthless assuming you get your RESIDENCY PERMIT within the 30 day requirement. If you wish to travel outside China (or to Macao or Hong Kong) within the time frame that your residency permit is valid, you must get a new RE-ENTRY VISA to get back in, regardless of the fact that your residency permit is still valid. Arrange this before you go; it will make your re-entry much easier.

14. When you are finally leaving China and you arrive at the airport worried that you will be detained because your Z-Visa is two years old, don't worry. At the gate, you show them your passport AND Residency Permit. Assuming the Residency Permit is up-to-date, they will wave you through BUT they will keep your Residency Permit (because that WAS your permission to remain in China). If you are planning on coming back (see Step 13) they will hand you back your residency permit and "wish you have a happy journey". Thus, when you return (on your re-entry visa) you will have your residency permit in hand and you, and your school, won't have to go through all that B#S# again. Too, if you have a multi-entry visa, they will not retain your residency permit when you leave. Otherwise, it's gone when you walk out of China BECAUSE

>>>the RESIDENCY PERMIT is the KEY piece of paper you need to stay, work, and reside here on a Z-Visa.

15. A Final Note: The Foreign Expert's Certificate is 90% worthless. It no longer has any bearing on your qualifications to live and work in China. It has no bearing on your permission to be here. It will NOT get you train ticket discounts and it will NOT get you hotel discounts. Those are modern day, foreign teacher urban myths.

It can get you a 70% discount on some domestic (but not international) flights - but flights, seats and dates are limited and you have to book through the airlines directly AND explain to them you have an FEC. It is an airline policy still, but you may have to explain it to the common staff and then wait while they telephone up their chain of command to verify it, only to find out that only two seats on that flight are coded for that discount and both have already been filled. You can get the same 70% (or better) discount by just bargaining with a travl agent.

But it has one important, remaining function: the FEC gives you the ability to exchange part of your RMB salary to foreign currency. Armed with your FEC AND a chopped original of your contract specifying your salary AND a chopped copy of your school's accounting records showing how much they have paid you AND a chopped copy of the tax record for the tax bureau showing, either how much tax your school actually paid on your salary OR that your salary is below the tax level.....then you can go to your local BOC and convert 70% of the amounts paid to you to foreign currency. That is if you are single. If you are married, the 70% threshold drops to 30%. Don't ask me why. TIC. That's the regulation - I'm only the messenger.

Now, hopefully this post can help alleviate many of the visa questions that spawn on the lists like mushrooms around this time of year. I'm sure it doesn't answer all the questions, and maybe it's wrong in some respects. But I am shooting for Mao's 70% right-30% wrong benchmark.

Did I hit it?

EDIT 2005-02-05:

CHINA HAS ONCE AGAIN CHANGED THE RULES BOTH IN NOVEMBER, 2004 AND AGAIN IN JANUARY, 2005. THE FOREGOING ADVICE AND EXPLANATION IS NO LONGER APPLICABLE. THE RESIDENCE PERMIT IS NOW COMBINED WITH THE Z-VISA AND PASTED IN YOUR PASSPORT. L VISAS WILL DEFINITELY NO LONGER BE CONVERTED TO Z VISAS IN COUNTRY HERE. IF YOU FOUND THIS POST BY DOING A SEARCH ABOUT CHINESE VISAS, LOOK FOR MORE RECENT POSTS BY OTHERS DATED AFTER ABOUT FEBRUARY 1, 2005. POSTS BEFORE THAT ARE OUT-OF-DATE.

[James_T_Kirk]

Damn YMMV, nice work! I can neither confirm nor deny that this information is 100% accurate, or even 70% for that matter. But, if it is, maybe this should be a sticky???

[brsmith15]

YM......

Magnifico! Magnifique! Hen hao! What an answer. It should not only be made a sticky, it should be added to every website having to do with China. In my 5 years here, I've never had such a clear -- albeit long -- explanation.

You know, even answers I've gotten from so-called Chinese "officials" have differed. AND, I've gotten different answers from the same person on two different days.

Danke! Gracias! Merci! Xie xie!

[ChinaLady]

okay, Ive read the foregoing.
and I am now to the point of - let my new school sort it out!!
I really wanted to travel a bit after my Z Visa expired (the residence expires the same day.) So, I went to the local entry exit office and asked for a one month L Visa, to travel in China.
(the FAO at my school said I could do this on my own.)
again, she lied.
nope, no L Visa.
and, and, the "officer" at the entry exit office would NOT talk to my new boss on my cell phone. but she had my old boss in her speed dial!
so, I can't travel. I go to the new school,and hope they can get all this processed or started before it all expires.
last year (because of the mis-information of the same FAO) this fiasco cost 1,000 yuan.
and I still trusted her this year. ahhhhh! okay - stupid pills are being taken on a regular basis.
click heels - this is China. Smile. TIC!

[Roger]

Well, Chinalady,
the information offered by that other poster is quite accurate; I have pointed out most facts on many occasions in the past.
It really is due to many opportunistic jobseekers that the authorities are tightening the screws. People won't believe me that you are not legally allowed to seek paid job or tutorial work on your own and live in rented premises - they are doing it all the time. Then there is the tax question: most of us miraculously escape taxing, but anyone making more than 4000 a month is eligible for tax payments.
It also is true that most training centres are opportunistic employers, and they don't follow legal provisions either. In fact, they would find it impossible to hire any of us if they had to follow the law. Still, too many of them are in business, and how can the authorities root them out? Yes, make life more difficult for illegitimate employment situations.

Most employers don't really know where to get the lowdown on how to employ a foreign national; this is typical for a country where the written word has little currency and everything goies by word of mouth.
SO, what you are experiencing is not necessarily something to do with perfidy or disingeniousness; they simply don't know, and they hardly care.

[cheekygal]

I am sure that Expert's permit doesn't give you any discounts. But for instance, in Qingdao and Harbin you have to have it and there it should be stated that you are a teacher. The company you work for should have a permission to hire foreign teachers in that case they can change your F or L visa to Z (I came to China on F visa and it was changed to Z. Last summer I had to go back home to change my expired passport and came back again with F visa which was changed to Z). Before your visa is changed to Z the company is supposed to apply to the labour bureau and the police department for Expert's Permit and Temporary Residence permit and if they are granted then your visa could be changed to a Z visa.
The best way of course is to get an invitation letter for Z visa before you leave your country
Again, be careful: as Roger said, the authorities are getting more serious with these issues. And don't be surprised if one day there will be a police check up in your school and you get arrested (we had such a situation with one of our partners who did lie about his permit of hiring foreign teachers and couple of our teachers were literally arrested in kindergartens and we had to bail them out).