Job Discussion Forums

[Robin2657]

Hello all, new, very very new. Have been checking out jobs in Vietnam. I might add, that there is more information here than anywhere else I've tried to do research on getting a teaching job.
From what I've been able to find out over the web, CELTA orTESOL, are part of the minimum requirements. Have you all found that to be true?

My background is in the visual arts, with teaching experience in that field.
I was considering taking CELTA to improve my teaching skills/knowledge of my language, and hopefully learn how to present it to students.

I have the appropriate degree, teaching experience, volunteer to teach ESL in the U.S. and love it. Am on sabbatical from my work, and would like to spend time, maybe alot of time, in Asia, and fund travel with teaching. Familiar story???? I am 53, female, artist/potter/traveler/adventurer. What are my chances, sink or swim in Vietnam, with or without CELTA.

Thanks so much

[DaveJavu]

[OzBurn]

Few of the teachers I have met have a CELTA. Of those I have met who did have it, all but one considered it a painful waste of time (for the most part). A lot of sitting on your posterior listening to people with DELTA's expound on their pet notions (such as, ironically, student involvement, and the joys of "eliciting").

A rule of thumb is that most places that offer CELTA courses say that they require that their teachers have a CELTA; e.g., the British Council, I believe, makes this claim, although I know it is not true in practice since I know someone who worked there for years and did not have a CELTA or any other kind of post-grad certification in EFL/ESL.

Many places that advertise overseas will ask for a CELTA, but they are the kind of places that tend to be picky about formal qualifications. If someone goes overseas with no teaching experience at all and has never taken any kind of teaching course with a practicum, the chance of their bailing out in a few weeks or months rises. So mandating a CELTA can reduce the risk for the employer, who above all does not want to hire a silly person with stars in his eyes who is sure he will love teaching and the exotic foreign country he read about in the Lonely Planet, but is unprepared for the real difficulties of first-year teaching, which, even when one is teaching people in one's native language, often reduce tyros to tears.

[No Moss]

In my experience in Vietnam (18 months), a CELTA opens some doors. A degree is more important. You can find work in the two major cities (Hanoi and HCM City). I'm an older (than you) guy, and I've been in Asia for a few years now. It's important to have a spirit of adventure. If you have that and the basic skills for making your way in the world and getting along with people, you'll do fine. Whether you get a CELTA or some sort of certificate now depends on your financial situation and how long you think you might want to teach. Return on investment is probably $1 to $3 per hour of teaching in Vietnam, so do the math.

In my experience, the hardest thing about teaching English is having empathy for your students. Experienced teacher trainers can teach you to slow down and make all or most of what you are teaching comprehensible. Simple things like setting a context for the language you are about to teach and giving students enough practice with the language before they have to start producing it make a lot of difference in a class.

It ain't all beer and roses, and it's not for everyone, but sometimes you just have to jump in the water to find out if you like to swim. Good luck!

[Waldorf Salad]

But do ALL schools pay more when you have a TEFL/CELTA certificate? Or is it just the 'top' schools that are interested? I'm currently in Taiwan and a TEFL certificate is pretty much useless here. Schools here only care if you have blue eyes and blonde hair. There are maybe a few schools in Taipei that would require an official qualification, but the vast majority of schools here couldn't care less. I will probably move to Vietnam next year and I'm interested in doing a TEFL course, but I'd like to know if this certificate will affect my pay when I'm working for one of the lesser known schools.

[OzBurn]

I don't have any information about Vietnam specifically, but I can say that there appear to be two kinds of schools, worldwide: the first kind sets their pay pretty much according to formal criteria, such as experience, degrees, certificates, and time served. The other kind pays according to how much they think the employee is worth in practical terms. Worth comes down to how well you teach, how much business you bring in (if any), and the degree to which students seek you out or stay in your classes, signing up for additional classes because you are there.

Of course, there are human realities to consider. Maybe a particular manager has a DELTA or MA, and because of this is generally willing to pay more money to similarly certificated people. He has to constantly validate the worth of the certificate that cost him so much time and money.

As someone who has negotiated contracts, I can tell you that many times the absence of a certificate can be used to justify lower pay, in situations where the employee probably could negotiate a higher salary on the basis of observed competence. However, this kind of negotiation requires, well, that you negotiate, not simply accept whatever the employer offers. In other words, you may have to indicate that you will leave unless your salary is increased, may have to make the point that you can teach as well as or better than teacher X who has a CELTA, or some such point. You have to be willing to walk away if you don't get what you want, and you have to make it clear that you are indeed willing to do so. For whatever the reason, however, many teachers are extremely weak advocates for themselves, which is why where they have unions they get good salaries and where they don't, get, comparatively speaking, very little.

If you want to know how bad teachers can be at negotiating salary, look at some of the ads for teachers from overseas that are offering salaries in the vicinity of 250 USD a month -- or, worse, the positions that offer to post you overseas as a volunteer if you pay their fees. To repeat: teachers, many of them, just don't have what it takes to negotiate for high salaries. Thus, I met a woman here who objected to teachers charging 15 USD per hour because that made it "so only the rich can study English." She thought it was part of her personal mission to keep down her own pay, as well as that of others.

International House is an example of an organization that must emphasize certification because it issues certificates (and makes a lot of money from its training courses). However, a trainer at International House, who has been in the field for decades, told me that in his opinion you absolutely do not need a CELTA to get work as an English teacher. (Now, if only IH would say that in their ads...)

[No Moss]

Well, I agree that you don't need a certificate to teach. I taught English for two years without one. Because of the state of the market in Asia, you don't need much to teach. But being logical about it, I would rather hire someone with a certificate because he or she has at least demonstrated enough interest in teaching to invest some of his own time and money, whether he learned anything or not. (Of course, I'm not in the position to hire anyone anyway!)

People who hire casual English teachers have to deal with a host of problems, including people not showing up or showing up drunk, or being totally incompetent and unprepared in class. Most teachers fulfill the minimum requirements of the job, but many don't do much to improve their skills as teachers.

[OzBurn]

Of course you are right about a formal certificate reducing risk, but many teachers have extensive experience and references, without necessarily possessing a TESOL or CELTA. Hiring someone with zero teaching experience in any field is always more risky than hiring an experienced person, but hiring someone with only a CELTA is risky as well.

[OzBurn]

Just for the record: I am working for a language school in Vietnam, and I make considerably more than people in the same school with years of experience and a CELTA. However, I did meet one guy who told me he had taken the CELTA because he couldn't get a job without one. Since I don't have one, and work at the same school, and make more than he does, I have my doubts about this. More likely he couldn't get a job because he wasn't a very good teacher until he took the course. Maybe the CELTA helped him improve his skills. He thought so.

[Rice Paddy Daddy]

[ambernz]

While I agree with the posts about personality and empathy being necessary to teach, I also think that qualifications are important. I have a CELTA and I have to agree that is pretty much a waste of time and money (the word 'eliciting' still sends chills down my spine!), but after I had taught for a year or so I did my MA (mostly in TESOL) and finally discovered that some of the things that I'd been doing instinctually were were good and others were very, very wrong! I think that qualifications can teach you how to get the maximum benefit from the materials you work with, and the students you are teaching. It is possible to 'unteach' a student and this is very easily done (ie teaching lexical sets), but unfortunately a CELTA will only give you some confidence to get into the classroom, not give you a sound background into second language learning processes or even make you a better teacher.

[No Moss]

Well, I would agree that an MA in TESOL is much better than a cert. I don't agree that a TESOL cert is worthless. My instructor for the course described it as a learner's permit, which I thought was pretty appropriate. At my age, I don't have the time to do an MA.

You can learn how to teach better. It's not all personality or personal qualities. I find it ironic that people whose job it is to teach believe that taking a class or reading a book about something is useless. Not everyone has an interest in getting better at the English teaching game, and that's perfectly understandable. It doesn't pay a lot, and for most people it's a short-term thing. But if you're going to do it for a while, perhaps you should consider developing your skills.

It's easy to make fun of the terms teachers use. There's a body of knowledge out there, and some of it you incorporate in your teaching and some of it you don't.

Anyway, no disrespect to anyone intended. Anyone who cares enough to participate in this discussion is probably a cut above the average.

[Rice Paddy Daddy]

CELTA made me a better teacher moreso than my M.A. TESOL did.

I think they both compliment each other, though.