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Geoff
Joined: 09 Jun 2004
Posts: 3
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 Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 11:29 pm Post subject: Are BA's really necessary |
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Hello all,
I just have a quick question for today. I've been looking at a bunch of ads for different jobs (mostly in China and Japan) over the last month or so just to get an idea of what's out there. Unfortunatly, many of the jobs I feel I'd be interested in say that the person applying needs a Bachelors degree. I don't have a BA, I'll soon have a diploma from college, does this mean that they won't even consider me? I've been teaching swimming lessons for almost 6 years now and have been teaching leadership and babysitting courses for 2 years. I just can't see why a person with a degree but no teaching experience should get a job over me, a person with 6 years experience teaching kids and teens. Has anyone without a BA ever applied for a job where it said it was required and if so what happend? Thanks in advance.
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Louis
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 275
Location: Beautiful Taiyuan
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| See my post on the "minimum age requirement" thread. |
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denise
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 3419
Location: finally home-ish
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 12:53 am Post subject: |
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Sometimes BAs are required for visas, as is the case in Japan.
d |
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anthyp
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 1320
Location: Chicago, IL USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 3:12 am Post subject: |
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Yes, and in China you can't get the proper work Visa without a BA, either.
As you know, however, it's not "necessary" to have a BA to work here, in that schools will still hire you anyway. And many of them will lie about your qualifications to get you your papers, don't worry.
| Geoff wrote: |
| I just can't see why a person with a degree but no teaching experience should get a job over me, a person with 6 years experience teaching kids and teens. |
Well, some people have their standards. And I understand you have a lot of experience teaching, but what makes you think you are qualified as an English teacher? Do you at least have a TEFL? |
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Geoff
Joined: 09 Jun 2004
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 3:38 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for the promt responses. I can see your point that teaching English and teaching swimming are two very different things. However, in my experience learning class control is often the hardest part, something that one can only really learn though experience.
Also I'd like to add that I took the advice of Louis and checked out that otherposting on age requirments.... interesting stuff. There seem to be some pretty angry people out there and I have to say that after reading what they had to say I can't think of a single reason that anyone would want a job teaching overseas. The whole system sounds terible.
As of right now no, I don't have a ESL certificate. I plan on taking a course with Oxford Seminars at a university in my area. will this make a big difference when I apply? |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 8:09 am Post subject: |
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You might also consider that CHinese are very condescending as regards people with less formal education than their own. To them, those slips of paper hold as much value as a US$1'000'000 note.A cert is more important than your actual abilities. Look at their shoddy education system, and you know what I mean.
Besides, I do believe a teacher should somehow stand taller intellectually than his or her learners. Chinese often think, Westerners don't have enough of the stuff - falsely or rightly. The fact that you will most likely be doing very lowly conversation classes won't help your status! |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| Geoff wrote: |
Also I'd like to add that I took the advice of Louis and checked out that otherposting on age requirments.... interesting stuff. There seem to be some pretty angry people out there and I have to say that after reading what they had to say I can't think of a single reason that anyone would want a job teaching overseas. The whole system sounds terible.
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Geoff, I am one of the people that contributed to the minimum age thread and though i would not call myself angry, I would say that I was pragmatic and realistic, especially after so many years teaching here.
There is nothing more galling to spend 4-6 years at university, develop skills, jump through all the hoops and have some guy try to sneak in with a fake online degree, or call themselves a teacher, even though they have no more than a high school education and think they can teach English becuase they happen to speak it as a native speaker. Blind leading the blind. The problem also in China (and Japan too to an extent) is that a white face and a pulse is all that is needed to get many jobs, and underqualified, untrained people take full advantage of the fact so they can get jobs there. They are also the loudest whiners when they experience, setbacks, low pay, devious bosses and fishy contracts and extortionate working conditions. This is despite being unprepared for what they are getting into.
As for the reasons many get into it there are many, chance to travel overseas, earn money, experience a foreign culture, even pick up a foreign spouse. There are a lot of pitfalls (sexual and racial discrimination, chance of being exploted by employers etc) as well, and what I was trying to do was to let people see some of the realities, not just the rose-spectacle kind. |
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shmooj
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1758
Location: Seoul, ROK
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 11:58 am Post subject: Re: Are BA's really necessary |
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| Geoff wrote: |
| I just can't see why a person with a degree but no teaching experience should get a job over me, a person with 6 years experience teaching kids and teens. |
Geoff, I can't help thinking that your point of view sounds a little reactionary - as if the world of TEFL should be open to people with no BA - which of course is naive. This is not, after all, vocational work.
Also, if you consider the whole thing from the employer's perspective (which, if you are going to apply for a job, you are going to have to do), you will realise that no employer is going to favour someone to teach what is ostensibly an academic subject if they do not have some sort of academic qualification. For most employers a BA is a minimum qualification for a teacher, not icing on the cake.
Sure, you are right when you say that there are a lot of classroom management skills that are practical and useful for organising students so that they are ready for learning. However, once you use your practical herding skills to get them that far, the rest will rely very heavily on academic knowledge of English, langauge learning and an understanding of issues the students face (psychology, sociology, linguistics).
Practical skill is one side of the TEFL coin IMHO. |
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lajzar
Joined: 09 Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Location: Saitama-ken, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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I would hazard a guess that teaching swimming is about as relevant to teaching English as teaching bricklaying is.
Swimming is not an academic subject, regardless of how difficult it may be. And I suspect the classroom dynamics are somewhat different, given that the physical aspect of a swimming pool is somewhat different from that of a regular classroom.
A lot of the class management techniques appropriate to swimming classes probably aren't relevant to EFL. And vice versa. I wouldn't suggest for a moment that I would be an effective swimming teacher.
Now, for a bonus point, can anyone tell me what Terry Pratchet said on hearing that Naomi Campbell had decided to write a book? |
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migo
Joined: 04 Jul 2004
Posts: 201
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Not off hand, but just the thought makes me laugh. |
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justcolleen
Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 654
Location: Egypt, baby!
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: Are BA's really necessary |
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| Geoff wrote: |
| Has anyone without a BA ever applied for a job where it said it was required and if so what happend? |
Yes, I have. Many, many times over the past twenty years or so, and I've been hired in most cases.
What happened was the lack of a degree alway made me work that much harder to prove myself and keep my job. Also, underqualification is notoriously a very good reason to be paid less.
Or ... were your referring to teaching jobs?
Colleen |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| many of the jobs I feel I'd be interested in say that the person applying needs a Bachelors degree. I don't have a BA, I'll soon have a diploma from college, does this mean that they won't even consider me? |
C'mon, Geoff. If you see an ad for any job in your home country, and you don't have the qualifications for it, what makes you think you will be considered. Same with teaching in Japan.
| Quote: |
| I've been teaching swimming lessons for almost 6 years now and have been teaching leadership and babysitting courses for 2 years. I just can't see why a person with a degree but no teaching experience should get a job over me, a person with 6 years experience teaching kids and teens. |
Couple of reasons. First, immigration rules state that unless you have several years of DIRECT teaching experience, you NEED the bachelor's degree for a work visa. Don't even try to get around this, and don't bother asking why they have set such a rule. It's there, and you have to obey it. (Working holiday visa, however, does not require a degree, but this has its limitations on age and on how long it is valid. You must be 18 to 30, and the WHV is only good for a year.)
Second, employers have their set of requirements, too, and most of them require the degree, probably for the same reason as immigration. Just feel lucky that it can be a bachelor's degree in ANY major.
Third, teaching swimming lessons is a far cry from teaching algebra, or history, or English. Would you feel qualified to teach any of those just because you can keep kids in line at poolside? I'm sorry, but "teaching" leadership and babysitting courses is also pitifully short of what you will need to control a classroom of Japanese seven-year-olds who don't even speak your language, or what you will need to present a coherent lesson plan on past participle usage to some Japanese housewives who attend your eikaiwa class once a week, or what you will need to manage a group of 45 high school students and keep them interested in a grammar lesson when they'd rather be chatting on their cell phones. You are comparing apples to oranges.
| Quote: |
| Has anyone without a BA ever applied for a job where it said it was required and if so what happend? |
Sure, some probably have. But they were qualified with a proper visa. You don't need a bachelor's degree if you have years of experience, or if you hold a working holiday visa, or if you have a spouse visa, or if you have a dependent visa, or if you have a student visa. However, the dependent visa and student visa allow only part-time work.
You just have to see it from the most pragmatic standpoint. Employers for English teachers are not that much different from employers anywhere else. You have what they need, or you don't. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: Are BA's really necessary |
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| Geoff wrote: |
Hello all,
Unfortunatly, many of the jobs I feel I'd be interested in say that the person applying needs a Bachelors degree. I don't have a BA, I'll soon have a diploma from college, does this mean that they won't even consider me?
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Well I guess if it was your decision to go to college and get a diploma that does not qualify for a work visa you disqualified yourself. No one here made you go and get a diploma.
If I want to practice law I go to law school, and become a mechanic I learn a trade. If you want to teach English in most Ssian countries you need a bachelors degree, regardless of whether you think its necessary. No one complains about what they study at law school if they know they will get a law degree and a job at the end of it. You are not entitled to a job here just because of your (non-ESL related ) experience with kids, you have to earn it, startting with having the qualifications employers ask for.
I also forgot to mention that many language teachers here are working with Masters and PhDs, as well. |
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nomadic
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 118
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Geoff, I can't help thinking that your point of view sounds a little reactionary - as if the world of TEFL should be open to people with no BA - which of course is naive. This is not, after all, vocational work.
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I'm going to presume this is a blanket statement to say that under no circumstances should TEFL positions be available to the unedumacated masses, right? In which case I must respectfully disagree.
You CAN, obviously, say that in the general case, employers are going to prefer those with a degree, and if you were to take a random sample of the population, it's probably not hard to believe that statistically, those with degrees would be more suited to teach than those without. But before we get to some hypothetical statistical games, let's consider other people who aren't fit for their positions:
Albert Einstein didn't have the 'requirement' of a high school diploma when he entered college. Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens) dropped out of college, but heck, he can't write very well, can he? Abe Lincoln had very little formal education, but he did alright at his job, no? How about Edison or Franklin, then? Countless people who are able to do a good job, if not excel, don't fit the typical categories of what makes a person good at their job.
The point being, of course, that considering someone who lacks a degree as unqualified to teach irrespective of other factors is what's actually naive. Let's make a really bad comparison - we have Alice, who couldn't afford to go to college, but in her spare time over the past ten years has repeatedly audited classes for free at the local university and reads and writes voraciously when she's not busy teaching the piano to children. On the other, we have Bob, who went to college on a football scholarship, graduating in five years, and often has trouble stringing together several words into a sentence. If they were the only two applicants for a TEFL job stating that a degree is necessary, who would you rather hire?
(But I agree with everything you said regarding employers favouring those with a BA.. that's just how life works these days!)
Anyway, Geoff, good luck in whatever you choose to do, and remember you're fighting an uphill battle, so try not to get discouraged easily. You'll need to educate yourself, work hard, be flexible and have a good attitude, but it's certainly possible. And, er,.. when you e-mail schools, it's probably wise to not include a signature calling yourself a "beach bum" in the e-mail. 
PS. If anyone is interested in statistical games, let me know and I'll post something about that.. otherwise, this is a ramble that's already quite long!
Cheers,
- nomadic |
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shmooj
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1758
Location: Seoul, ROK
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| nomadic wrote: |
| Quote: |
Geoff, I can't help thinking that your point of view sounds a little reactionary - as if the world of TEFL should be open to people with no BA - which of course is naive. This is not, after all, vocational work.
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I'm going to presume this is a blanket statement to say that under no circumstances should TEFL positions be available to the unedumacated masses, right?
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Presume what you like buddy, but you're wrong.
What the heck is unedumacated anyway?
A BA does not maketh the man. However, I myself hired two people without them when in Japan (one on a spouse visa and one with a diploma that immigration accepted as a BA ). I would not do so again. Life experience counts for a great deal but the caveat has to be that it is RELEVANT life experience and, as others pointed out, teaching swimming is hardly relevant.
The two people I hired were experienced but hardly relevantly either. I made a mistake - well, two actually. On task, these people demonstrated admirably that they could not think through an issue confronting them in the classroom and come up with a series of solutions to apply. They had to be led through a great deal by the hand and spoon fed loads of stuff. Picking up theories of language acquisition and coming up with creative ways to apply them practically to the classroom was way way beyond them without me having to invest inordinate amounts of time and energy. I presume that this was because they had not had to face the kind of problem solving situations that people with BAs have for breakfast and were not used to applying themselves mentally to turning good theory into good practice.
It was a long hard slog for all involved and they eventually moved on to other teaching positions. I moved on to being a wiser employer and consequently my next three hirings had MAs and the place was transformed.
Blankets are unnecessary but, when faced with 100 applicants for one post, having no BA makes life very difficult... |
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