Job Discussion Forums

[Ace]

Well, half a solution to be honest - I've got a 'speaking ' class of 60, mostly girls, so after a bit of 'read after me' etc, I've got them in groups of about 8 and I give them discussion questions and plan to go around the groups monitoring. Yesterday, the first day, was about assessing them, but the noise level was so great that I couldn't hear the people in the groups I was with and they couldn't hear me.

Next class I'll either appoint or get them to choose group leaders - I thought I'd try and put some responsibility on the group leaders for maintaining a reasonable noise level. Obviously it's not ever going to be quiet, but we've got to be able to communicate...

What do you think? I'm making 50% of the grade based on term work, i.e. class participation...

can I penalise the group-leaders? can I reward them? can I penalise the whole group if it's noisy? (I wonder if they'll care...but they actually seem like lovely kids; second year college students)

Any suggestions?

[Ludwig]

It sounds to me like a very unstructured 'lesson'. 'Read after me' and 'discussion topics' (with 'monitoring'). Where did you complete your teacher training pray tell? A 'lesson' like that would not even get you through a CELTA observation.

[burnsie]

Ludwig,

Why don't you offer some advice rather than criticising Ace's methods.

[Ger]

Buy a whistle and blow it and have the children say 'attention sir'!

[cj750]

Burnsie,
Why don't you offer some advice rather than criticising Ludwig's methods.

In fact Ludwig sounds right, an unstructured class will give opportunity for noise. Structure you class with a goal in mind..such as a test...at the end of the exercise. These students are proned to respect testing and by incl. a testing process at the end it may help.

Various problems associated with group work and these problems have to do partly with the nebulous quality called 'discipline'and this comes about through organization. And this depends on the personality of the teacher, the class and the relationship. Thoughtful and efficient organization can, however, contribute a good deal to solving problems.

[Ace]

Let's not be too facile...by "a bit...etc" I mean: we have a reasonable text, so I'm aiming to improve their fluency by having them read aloud after me, while I explain and comment on the text where necessary - their English is not great but not too bad. Then I give each group a couple of questions to discuss - on paper, so they make notes. At the end of each class a different student will briefly summarise one of the points...While they discuss I monitor and encourage group by group. It's a 'Speaking Class,' (well, one is also a writing class) they're 20-24 year olds...not aiming as high as CET...

NB There are two books...the first one I use, in the first period, has dialogues and exercises.

I'd appreciate any better ideas...haven't taught 60 before...

[burnsie]

cj,

I'm not a trained teacher so that's why I didn't offer advice.

[goeastyoung(ish)man!]

60 is way too many kids to conduct any reasonable conversation class, but you know that. Perhaps if the groups were smaller, the noise would lower a tad. Try 4-5 students. I personally would only complain to the students if they were speaking Chinese at the expense of English.

Try this: Lose your temper or pretend to lose your temper and yell for a minute , then apologize for it quickly . After that you just have to look like you're going to blow a gasket and they often quiet down a bit. I use that when they don't pay attention to the student I have asked to speak to the class or to me. Note: don't use this one if you already have a reputation as a psycho. It also doesn't work if they think you're cute when you're angry.

I knew of another teacher who split the class in two and told half the students to show up midway through the lesson to replace the first group. It is one way to manage the problem, but you probably wouldn't get approval for this should you ask.

[kev7161]

If I'm talking and I notice kids chatting away (usually in the back of the class), I just stop talking and look at them. Pretty soon, they notice I've stopped talking and then they do so as well. This is effective a large portion of the time. I have posted in my classroom the "rules of the class". Number Two is "no talking while the teacher or another classmate is talking - it's not polite." Is this 100% effective? No, but we've discussed it and it's better this term (so far) than last. If a class gets too out of control and I find I can't rein them back in (it does happen from time to time no matter how professional or creative I am), then I simply cancel the class and send them back to their own classroom. I don't pull this tactic too often, but I've never had a complaint yet from the director.

[Joe B]

Ace,

Group Tool:
A practical modification of your exercise to reduce the noise of all 60 students speaking at once could be to use an old group tool. Have each group choose an object that they have - a pen, an eraser, or something - to use as a conversation token. Have the members of each group pass the token around their group in any way that you specify. The rule is that only the person with the token in his/her hand can speak. Then that person either passes to the next person or to a person of her/his choice within the group. This way you would have only about 8 students speaking at any one time in your class of 60.

You would need to have some students come up in front of class to demonstrate the technique so everyone has a clear idea of how it works before doing it with the whole class.

Confucianism:
The following is how Korean Confucianism works in a Korean University classroom. It may be more Korean in nature, but maybe the Confucianism is similar in China. (I have not been to China yet.) I had total control in my classrooms without ever saying a word or having to use punishment tactics of any kind. I had anywhere from 20 to 90 students in a classroom depending upon the class being taught. It was all done with expressionless/neutral (no showing of anger or impatience) and fairly discreet "looks" (eye movement and sometimes a slight turning of the head) and a polite attitude.

If the reciprocal aspect of Confucianism is still fairly strong in your area (in China), a teacher must be "generous" in order to get respect and cooperation from the students. Generous means that the teacher overlooks bad behavior - tardiness, chatting in the classroom, not doing homework, etc - by looking at the offending student(s) in an obvious yet fairly subtle way (and silent way - say nothing) and then ignoring them.

What that does is that it shows the students that you see and recognize the infringement, but you do not react in a negative way by pointing it out the infringement in front of the group. This is being generous, which is worthy of much respect. The students who did the infringement then become the "bad students" and the teacher becomes the Good Teacher. The contrast between Good Teacher and Bad Student becomes extremely obvious to the students in front of the whole group. This forces the infringement to stop by the embarrassment of being a bad and impolite student within the group.

This worked like a champ with adults and young adults in Korea for the 6+ years I was there. However, in the 6+ years I was in Japan, the reciprocal aspect of Confucianism was very different and discipline had to be accomplished in a very different way. So, I'm not exactly sure how Confucianism plays out in the classroom in China. However, the Korean method worked well with the Mainland and Taiwanese Chinese students that I had in both Korea and Japan.

Best of Luck,

- Joe

[Hondo 2.0]

Working in groups is a skill that takes time to cultivate. I'd recommend that you start off with pairwork, and then slowly increase the number of group member. All the while, give the students defined roles. Think of everything that you want the group to accomplish, and then divide responsibility between your students.

I also suggest that you assign roles instead of having students choose. For example, you can write down the roles on the blackboard: time-keeper, recorder, leader, reseacher, questioner, etc.. You can number the tasks, and tell the students to order themselves according to their birthdate. If they're working in pairs, they can toss a coin. You could also give them dice, or have them draw cards.

[Ace]

I've modified the idea slightly, and it's been working like a charm! Yesterday it was a reasonable noise level at worst, and the students I was with had a clear awareness of the requirement to maintain it that way, when other groups got a bit loud...but I reassured them that it wasn't a question of whispering...if this keeps up, everyone will be happy and, I think, if they maintain it they'll have learned a useful social lesson.

Great feedback this week from individuals, lovely emails, invitations to dinner and lunch in the canteen (and to their homes in various other cities) and of course, Teachers' Day cards and gifts...couldn't feel better about the first week!

[Roger]

The chatting phenomenon is deeply ingrained in Chinese and I don't see many practical solutions to this problem; sometimes cooperation can be gained, often you have to steer towards other objectives. I refuse to hold discussions when students are too noisy. As non-Chinese, we have less face no matter how we bethis is true not only because of 'race' but also because we are kind of transients that they see only during a relativbely short period - one semester or one year. They behave more rewspectfully under their Chinese head teachers, though!

If you look around you, you cannot escape the impression that Chinese talk without listening to anybody; they interrupt whenever their guts dictate them to do so; they don't listen someone out - lack of patience and manners!
Also, they have no qualms about talking to someone in public about their innermost and most private affairs; while it is possible to inculcate in Japanese or other Asians a modicum of decency when using their cellphones, the Chinese use them anywhere, at any time, and for whatever purpose.
Similarly, whenever a class gives ap performance (say, in English!), their parents come and make a hell of a nuisance of themselves, not listening to any actor or actress but talking loudly to other adults, and perhaps, pricking their ears when their child's turn has come to speak...

[AsiaTraveller]

From another forum and thread, but it's SO VERY applicable to English teachers in China:

[AsiaTraveller]

Ace,

You can also try posting in the Teacher Forums here at the cafe. There are forums on 'Classroom Activities' and on 'Elementary Education'.

I bet you'll get some extremely helpful suggestions and ideas. And you will get no flaming!!

Best wishes ...