Job Discussion Forums

[Old Dog]

I note that, occasionally and maybe by accident, one or two posters to this forum make teeny-weeny errors in grammar, usage and spelling.

I can't offer you much regarding spelling apart from suggesting investment in a dictionary and the development of an awareness of your own uncertainty regarding the spelling of certain words. However, as far as grammar and usage are concerned, maybe I can offer some help to those in desperate need of it. It may be that your Chinese colleagues seek your advice about certain points of grammar and you have no explanation other than "That's what we say".

If the situation is desperate and if your face is about to disappear like that of the Cheshire cat, maybe you could PM me with your question - and, if I have the time, I'll try to give you a lucid answer of the sort that Chinese English teachers will understand.

I note that Baijioubloke was not exactly inundated with offers of assistance when he posed a simple question recently.

[togusa]

Thanks for the offer. I'm starting my teaching position tommorrow and I will definitely take you up on it.

[ChinaEFLteacher]

thanks for the offer! i just might need an old dog to teach me some new tricks in the future.

[Old Dog]

As a prelude to any answers that I might suggest to you in the future, let me offer here what should be a preface to them all:

1. The English grammar taught in Chinese schools is an "abridged" grammar.
2. Its aim is to teach as many as possible a fairly workable version of English as efficiently as possible.
3. It has no room for exceptions or unusual contexts.
4. Rules are black and white, plain Jane and no nonsense.

Its effectiveness in the classroom and the application of these rules in exams depend upon the skill of the teacher and the examiner in devising exercises in which the contexts are ones suitable for the application of the black and white rule.

Two problems arise. The first is where a context is constructed that does not fit the b/w rule or where the context permits of alternative, correct responses. The second arises when writers of text books or exercise sheets rise above their station and are rather more creative with the language than their command of the language permits.

It needs to be remembered that a properly constructed English exercise in the Chinese classroom or in the National Examination is one where the examinee is being directed to the application of the b/w which he/she has been taught. It should, therefore, be the duty of the teacher/examiner to construct a context in which the only possible correct answer is the one that applies that b/w rule. Sometimes, unfortunately, this does not happen. Alternatives are poorly chosen or chosen in innocence, and the consequence is that, for the native-speaking teacher at least, the exercise will contain two (and sometimes more) equally correct answers*. (Then again, sometimes, total chaos reigns and there are no correct answers but the teacher attempts to teach one of them as correct. Oh, dear!)

Trying to explain this latter situation* to a Chinese teacher is somewhat difficult since his/her own understanding will be limited to the b/w rule. The validity of the second, perfectly correct answer, will be lost on them.

One should not be too critical of this. Just remember that the simplification of the Chinese written characters was an attempt at producing mass literacy. In the same way, the simplification of the "traditional" grammar of English is an attempt to produce some facility in the use of English on a mass scale.

There is much wailing at the English wall here about the atrocities committed in English classrooms and there is some doubt cast upon the point of English study beyond its value as a "mark giver" in the National Exam. But one needs to recognize that someone, somewhere in this vast country thinks the study of English sufficiently important that it be one of the three compulsory National Examination subjects. Schools think it sufficiently important that they employ foreign teachers, however poorly then that they may make use of their skills. Universities think it sufficiently important that students brave the CET4 and 6 examinations - and students, it seem to me at least, are so often keen to attempt to pass them.

[millie]

Hello Old Dog

I am sure you are more than competent to offer such advice and some certainly need some assistance.
Good on ya for your kind offer!

However, I did find you explanation in an earlier post of apparent alternative forms of the past tense of verbs quite short of the mark in some crucial respects.

c/f with your caveat above:

Quote:

1. The English grammar taught in Chinese schools is an "abridged" grammar.

Not suggesting you are one, but neophytes often confuse the past tense of a verb with its past participle and as you know they often have different forms eg spilled/ spilt - saw/seen.

Although, I forget the exact examples in that earlier post, it would seem likely that some of the supposedly alternative forms were examples of this grammatical point.
M

[Old Dog]

Dear Millie, Are you thinking of teaching "grandma to suck eggs"? I think you must be from America. There is a tendency among users of American English to think that this is the only form of English when, strange as it may seem, it is not. What I posted is totally accurate. There are alternative forms of the past and past participle forms of certain verbs in all forms of English other, it seems, than American English - and these are always taught as equal alternatives in British English countries. Which one is actually employed is usually a matter of personal preference - although questions of euphony do intrude from time to time.

British English is the form used in China - much as some American ft's here think it is in need of reform apparently. If you were the young lady who was surprised to find an alternative past form of a certain word and who felt compelled to correct it, maybe it would be well for you to brush up on the British English which you are employed here to teach.

If it should be that you are British, then you were a very naughty girl at school and did not learn your spelling and grammar as well as you might have done.

But, doubtless, I can rest assured that you are totally assured of your competence in the area as, I see, are so many of the contributors to these forums.

OD

[millie]

Oh Dear

that fragile ego...

Well of course you are right.
Who would dare to suggest otherwise
M

[Roger]

Sad to note Old Dog is right about the "abridged" version of English grammar in Chinese schools.
Many university students don't know the difference betwen "went" and "gone"; I had a chap writing "I goed there..."...
There are ever more hiccups in the classroom, and for me it is terribly hard to give my students adequate fed-back that is helpful and of lasting effect.
When they speak, they don't think much about the proper and accurate forms; they confuse "he" with "she", "fly" with "fliew" and sometimes invent "flied". Then there are those fosilised forms _"I/you/he means". Why on Earth do Chinese say "I mean..."?

How can you help them? I only see one way: I have them write their stuff, then go over it with a magnifying glass to see the tiniest aberration. In one sentence, I routinely find several mistakes...

They need exercises of a different sort: they ought to learn to ANALYSE English sentences rather than merely learning by heart those bloody grammar rules!

[monju]

Gosh, do your students actually attempt to use the simple past?
Amazing!
Mine just use the simple present for everything.
Whatevered they happen to have studied is totally useless for communicative purposes anyway, just look at the textbooks they use.
The sole purpose of their studying English seems to be to learn to call out strange twisted interpretations of "hello", so they can laugh at you when you do or don't reply.
Besides most of the Chinese students or teachers would never lower themselves to ask the "stupid Laowai" questions about grammar. I've been told I'm only permitted to teach "speaking", (strange, I thought "speaking" used grammar too!)
huanyin guanlin!

[badtyndale]

Those twisted "hello" calls assume that you will be a 'polite foreigner' (something of a contrast to the native culture) and will respond. As the call is made after you have passed the caller, it is assumed that you will turn to acknowledge the caller. Whether on foot or on bicycle do not be distracted by this ruse that is merely devised to cause you a minor accident.
Chinese students will always trust the CT no matter how you may protest their methods/information.