Job Discussion Forums

[oreyade]

Is promoting the spread of English outside Britain and the original British colonial areas (USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Singapore) something imperialist and colonialist??

Even all those native English speaking countries used to be NON-English speaking areas just a few centuries ago (ie. the Massacre of Aboriginal people and culture in North America and Australia by White settlers and invaders).

There have been serious books on this matter. I tend to agree that although the direct colonialism that you read about in history books is over, there is a new SUBTLE and unspoken CULTURAL IMPERIALISM going on. This means that the "standard" English language and the White-English speaking cultures and ideas that go with it are promoted as "normal" and "standard" and valued as higher. Other non-English languages are decreasing and being invaded by English terms and words.

I guess the basic question that must be asked is:
WHAT DOES IMPERIALISM AND COLONIALISM (in its old and new forms) HAVE TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT ENGLISH IS NOW SPREAD AROUND THE GLOBE???

Let's face it folks.... THERE IS NOTHING INNOCENT AND NON-POLITICAL ABOUT TEACHING ENGLISH IN NON-ENGLISH SPEAKING SOCIETIES. The spread of the English language has a very political history

[denise]

Been reading much Pennycook lately?

I am torn by the colonialism/imperialism issue. What, exactly, am I contributing to by actively contributing to the spread of the current lingua franca? Other languages are perishing while the one that I have been lucky enough to have been born into grows stronger. The sad (and I do mean sad...) reality is that these days many people do need some degree of English to get by.

There's a supply/demand mentality that says that students want/need to learn English, and that we are merely providing them with that service. That thinking does not hold for me--it ignores the politicization of the language and it denies the role, good or bad, that teachers can play in its spread. (The next question is, then, what good can teachers do? Validate the Ss' L1s, learn their L1s, be explicit about the political nature of language, teach students how to think critically about the language [but then, isn't teaching students how to think just another form of imperialism?] etc...)

Am I rambling too much? I feel like I'm getting dangerously close to getting completely nonsensical. Fascinating issue, though. I can't wait to read more replies.

d

[bnix]

Teaching English IMPERIAISM??What a lot of silly#@$#@#....hooey.Odd thing,a lot of those people out there semm to be very anxious to learn English.It is seen as a way of furthering their careers and bettering themselves.Imperialism?Well,there is always some ivory tower liberal somewhere willing to get up on his soapbox and point fingers.I think your "poll" should have one more category:"Those Who Think This Poll Is a Ludicrous Waste of Time"...
And when I was taking Spanish and French. the idea that some "imperialists" in Madrid or Paris might be trying to take advantage of me by foisting their language on me...

[aaronschwartz]

How about another poll to determine if bnix is a waste of time and should be banned?

Try reading the 4/03 issue of English Today, Cambridge Press.

[bnix]

Ban me?I thought you liberals were in favor of "free speech"?Apparently,as long as it is your speech or agrees with what you say.Notice,I am not saying Aaron should be banned.He has as much right as any other person to voice his opinions.As for that long screed (scholarly) he posted up there...someone else's opinions.Of course,they are entiltled to them,too.And I am not saying Aaron should be banned.Someone just does not agree with him,he thinks they should be banned.

[aaronschwartz]

I only asked the question. I did not express any opinion.

But in reading your posting history I do not see that you contribute much other than negativism. So maybe I would vote to ban you, and maybe not.

[bnix]

Of course,if you view my posts as "negativism",that is your opinion,and you are entitled to it.Some of the posts WERE negative.A lot of the posts on this board and the Korean Board are negative.Are you in favor of banning everybody who posts negative posts?There will be a lot of banning going on.As for a poll to"ban people"..I think that is a rather silly idea ,too.After all,what effect would it have,except to allow you to express your opinion,which you are entitled to and which you have already done anyway.Anyway...Aaron calm down,have a nice day.It is a discussion forum and obviously there are going to ne differing points of view.
To show you I am not so negative,I even retract those comments I made about you teaching in China.For all I know you might be one helluva teacher.I hope so.We need good(real) teachers in this business. Have a nice day.

[khmerhit]

Thank you for posting that, but Im sorry it hurt my eyes and i had to skip to the conclusion. CUP pubs are indigestibly dense and soporific-- i used to write blurbs for their jackets, so forgive me if i lie down and have a nap at the memory ........

Look--- If there is no occupying power involved, then teaching ESL is not colonialism. If it were a simple matter of economic and political muscle following in the wake of the language, then we might call it economic colonialism. But the fact of the matter is that English is used as the lingua franca in many fields of endeavour, particularly business, by and between peoples of all nations. Just as French was the language of diplomacy and german the language of science, English has become the go-to language--- for everyone.

Unfortunately, one big result is that it is wiping out a number of minority languages. I took the stuff below from http://www.ogmios.org/bib.htm


To get an idea of where the action is in endangered languages, I would recommend five books, the first three relatively easy to find, the last two more difficult.

They are:

R.M.W. Dixon. The rise and fall of languages. Cambridge University Press 1997.

Jonathan Bobaljik, Rob Pensalfini and Luciana Storto eds. Papers on Language Endangerment and the Maintenance of Linguistic Diversity, MIT Working Papers in Linguistics vol. 28 (1996)

Lenore Grenoble and Lindsay Whaley eds. Endangered Languages. Cambridge Univ. Press 1998.

R.H. Robins and E.M. Uhlenbeck eds. Endangered Languages. Oxford: Berg 1991.

Kazuto Matsumura ed., Studies in Endangered Languages. Tokyo: Hituzi Syobo 1998.
http://www.hituzi.co.jp/hituzi/welcome.html

The last four of these are collections of papers, but almost all of the papers are excellent.

[/list]

[khmerhit]

...

[Roger]

An ivory towery debate, really!

Should we ban the use throughout of the world of Linne's classification system because in using it we are spreading ancient Roman cultural imperialism? OK, down with roses, and up with hoses, doses or whatever vernacular names you may elect!

I think any nation chooses the foreign tongues to be taught in its midst very, very carefully! There always is some form of 'intellectual pollution' going on when an emperor's subjects have access to foreign thoughts that circulate in the language of foreign enemies. Precisely this parochial and paranoid thinking was en vogue in China during the Yuan, Ming and Qing dynasties. It is still very evident in the form of many government policies, i.e. the minority cultures of China. The Mongolians have been sinecised as have the Manchus. Cultural imperialism? Only in the eyes of the neutral observer, of course!

But is TESL (more accurately: TEFL) in China actually a "westernising" process? To what extent? Is it going to usurp indigenous Chinese culture???

That's another academic highflyer. Someone define "Chinese culture", please! Is 'democracy' a 'western-only' cultural phenomenon? Is idealism a cultural import? Generosity? Fairness? Justice? The answer is: Yes, if you say most of these terms are more familiar terms and concepts to a Westerner than to a Chinese person. But they bear no national label, unlike anything you may call "Chinese".
The arguments of Niu Chiang and Wolf reflect CP doctrine rather than comprehension of Chinese reality and culture. This abstract is full of geopolitical considerations to the detriment of a more fruitful discussion on what might be useful for the Chinese people.

Let's remind the authors of this pamphlet that the CP in its totalitarian excesses of the decades before Deng came to power destroyed most elements of genuine Chinese culture - keyword 'cultural revolution'. Let's also remind these dreamers that the CP was driven, and still is driven, by purely materialistic ambitions to catch up with the developed world, which in itself means that China or its 'leaders' have adopted benchmarks prevalent in the West: Industrial production, scientific means to achieve it, rationalism and suppression of 'the bad old': Ignorance, superstitions, personality cult.
The current modernisation drive is, as can easily be inferred from the afore mentioned, a continuation of 3 decades of Chinese CP dictatorship. The major difference is that the Party has learnt a few lessons from past errors so crass and gross that they were becoming a threat to the Party's power. In fact, the blind and idiotic following that the former command economy enjoyed proved to be the nation's worst problem - the whole economy was producing surpluses of old-fashioned and largely useless products because in such a system no one can develop new ideas and new products. Some of can still see those old buses that the communist Chinese produced until the late 1980's, based on a design of the 1940's!

When Deng came to power a fresh wind was allowed to blow in, instead of the East wind blowing out from China to the rest of the world! Deng was one of the few of his generation in the CP who had first-hand experience living and working in a Western country before the so-called 'Liberation" (he was in France!).

Anyone who has some basic knowledge of China's recent history ought to understand that the transformations we are witnessing are due to the willingness of a handful of dictators to allow their labouring masses to enjoy greater freedom and choice. They are not that much more enlightened though - they are acting in their own interest so they can cling to power. I have noted Chiang and wolf's negative stance towards DEMOCRACY!

To postulate that the spread of English is inimical to the aspirations of the Chinese is preposterous. The purpose of my lengthy reply is to refute the notion that a foreign language is being foisted on the Chinese. Once again, it has been adopted voluntarily by those that wield power in this country. Of course, the language is being forced on the Chinese learners - by none other by fellow-Chinese.
That is totally different from, say, Americans demanding that Chinese transact business dscussions with them in English. If you want to call that 'imperialistic', we won't need to quarrel.
But the fact is that no one from outside forces the Chinese to learn English. It is the circumstances, the new geopolitical situation in the whole world that's in favour of ENglish being adopted as the lingua franca of the family of nations.
The comparison of China with those countries that adopted English as their national tongue and thus eliminated local languages (the languages of native Americans, aboriginals in Australia) is ridiculous! English is never going to replace Chinese. It simply is China's only medium of communications with the majority of people that are not Chinese. Even in former British colonies, English has not supplanted local languages. It often is the cosmopolitan elite's chosen language because local tongues are unknown even in neighbouring countries. Does any Zambian speak Zulu? Even Swahili in East Africa does not have the same penetration that English has across the borders between Uganda, Kenya, Tanzania and now even Congo!

Of course, there are ominous tendencies in the TEFL world. One is the sheer insensitivity of CHinese educationists to force all their students to learn English. Few students are genuinely motivated to learn a language that their leaders perceive as being spoken by the enemy of China. this dichotomy - top-down order "you must learn it!' while being exhorted to "never betray your motherland by emigrating" engenders nothing but schizophrenia.
It would be by far more desirable that only a dedicated minority of students were taught English. They should have a choice as they do in Western countries. SOme may choose to study "foreign languages" - including French, Japanese (very important too!) or, why not? - Arabic besides English; these students would have to major in these languages at college. The rest could study basic English, or be freed from studying it altogether, why not? There is nothing more frustrating for a teacher as to be faced by a crowd of young minds hostile to the teacher's subject!

Another undesirable tendency is for some of the expat teachers to believe being a native teacher is an asset. This leads to the mediocrity of the teaching scene as touched upon on this forum on several occasions. Of course, there are teachers out there that have unprofessional and silly prejudices in their own favour, and these prejudices must be eliminated. China should train its own teachers better, and only Western teachers can do that effectively, full stop!

But the authors of this contribution have biases too, and not benign ones! English is a language china badly needs. How else can China learn from the West? This country has to come to grips with a lot of contemporary issues that Westerners or other countries can address together with their Chinese counterparts. "Westernisation' has been a processus going on for millenia. The first wheel was invented in Sumeria. How did it eventually find its way to China? Beer, writing, houses and cities, not to mention agriculture all are "western' inventions without which we could not live today. China was closed to us for centuries; now it has to make quantum leaps in order to lift itself to an adequate level of civilisation.

To appeal to Chinese' chauvinism is totally unnecessary - another order for coal to Newcastle! The stunning economic successes of China over the last two decades are all due in no small part to Western influence, investments, technology transfer, scientific research and sharing of results, etc. To appeal to Chinese chauvinism by demanding that foreign visitors should use Chinese in their communications with Chinese is ludicrous!
As if foreign businessmen had an easy time recruiting a reliable interpreter for their negotiations!

[Wolf]

[chinasyndrome]

Interesting thread.

Khmerhit (why do I always want to write 'Kermit'? ) made, I think, a very good point when he spoke about the relationship between colonialism and occupation. I think it's worth a reread. However, I'd like to take a slightly different path on this and put it, partially, into business terms.

All or most of us would be familiar with the term 'hostile takeover', in which one company wants to take over another that is unwilling to join the 'family'. That, to a degree, is akin to imperialism or colonialism. Then there's the lesser-known but equally real 'reverse hostile takeover' in which the target becomes the acquirer. And in future potentially the divestor.

Over the years I've asked and / or been told that China needs to learn English so that it can 'become strong'. Quite a few times I've asked what this means. In all cases to date the opinions boil down to China being the world leader and getting even with real or imagined enemies for real or imagined slights or aggression. So it would follow that while the west is being accused at times of cultural pollution through language, that is seen as an acceptible evil if it gains the ultimate goal of the acquirers. Once they are strong they can rid themselves of the pollution. The sense of history in China merely repeats itself in a publicly less arrogant and tranparent manner.

Just about all FTs in China would at one time or another come across the phenomenon of the intellectual / cultural equivalent of '1 country/2 systems' in terms like these:

"If I cheat you and win it's because you're a stupid foreigner."
"If I cheat you and lose it's because you're a bad foreigner picking on the poor Chinese person."

We can't win because we're not meant to win!

Where is the real imperialism/colonialism? It would seem that China has a very clear agenda once you look beneath the words they use. In business, you hardly go to your target company and tell them openly you're going to shake and break them. You talk about co-operation, the exchange of ideas, the strength of unity and the common weal. Then you break them.

If we look at this discussion, not from the point of what we are doing to them, but what they want from us and why they are doing it, the opprtunity exists for us to escape our own cultural cringe and at least examine what motivations (or possibly machinations) our friends have.

Imagine China with the economic strength and worldwide clout the Americans currently enjoy. The westernisation of Asia or the asianisation of the West? If their history tells us anything it is that the Chinese are sublimely clever and have a much longer view of the world and their place in it. They are adaptable and think generationally.

[Corey]

Yes, let's ban the teaching of English in foreign countries. It's jsut evil. While we're at it, let's start looking for new jobs.

Good luck.

[cafebleu]

Yes, have to agree with Corey.

And while we`re at it, let`s ignore all the colonialism of France, Germany, Belgium, Holland, Spain, Portugal, etc, which has imposed European languages on different cultures around the world.

And let`s simplify issues to a childish level so that we shove in our racist oar wherever we can, using `White` as an insult and let`s ignore thousands of years of different races imposing their cultures and languages on other races. Let`s just focus on `White` because that way we don`t have to confront the complicated realities of the world, including genocidal wars between non-White groups.

That way it`s easier for us - we don`t have to delve into issues so much and do proper research, and we can run away from dealing with our personal problems if we demonize one group. It sure is nice to not deal with reality, isn`t it?

[Cobra]

I saw an interesting news article recently (last two months) where a British Secretary, or was it ambassador, stated that English is Great Britian's greatest export asset and that through it Great Britian will rule the world again, or something like that.

I wish I had a copy right about now. Darn!