Job Discussion Forums

[Old Dog]

It took me several years to work out what might be going on. Here are fact and one guess:

1. I used to think that students were taught a sophisticated English grammar - mainly because some of the problems that students are confronted with occasionally do require a pretty sophisticated knowledge of grammar for their solution.

However, I have come to realize that this is not the case. The grammar that is taught is a pared-down version of English grammar, the equivalent of Readers' Digest condensed books. Every point is either black or white. Children are taught not why a thing is right but, by endless repetition, they are brought to recognize the question type and therefore the prescribed answer.

This makes good sense if you want to teach millions to read, write and speak English with reasonable accuracy. It's a bit like aiding literacy in China by adopting a simplified version of the traditional Chinese characters. Everything works well as long as exercises that are given in exams and ordinary classroom exercises are couched in terms where black or white is appropriate and where the stereotypes are used. Anything requiring a shade of grey leads everyone into trouble because, once a Chinese teacher or student gets into the area of exceptions to the rule, confusion follows.

"Grey" problems abound in those dreadful exercise sheets. The National Exam, however, is pretty good and normally steers the students into the correct answer that is to be found by application of the hard and fast rule. I've analysed the past 13 years of N.E. English papers quite thoroughly and, with few exceptions, the questions have been very well prepared. There is little Chinglish or Chinese English there - so I never quite know for what purpose "Chinese English" is being taught.

2. Now for the guess. Scratch the surface of any Chinese person and you'll soon find an assumption of Chinese superiority in all things. So, how then, does this superiority notion fit with placing such importance on the study of English in today's curriculum? Does it represent a sort of genuflection to the West? My guess is that, by asserting the existence of "Chinese English", one asserts that one is not forced to borrow from the outside world. One asserts that a product superior to outsider's English, Chinese English, China's own creation, is being purveyed. My conclusion has been that those from whose mouths those dreaded words, "Chinese English", come are doing little more than mouthing an enthusiasm for Chinese nationalism. I am unmoved by it since I know the concept does not move the National Examiners.

I don't believe we should be unduly critical, however, of the teaching of English in China by Chinese teachers. I believe that they do an excellent job of creating in a very large section of the population quite reasonable proficiency in the use of English. Clearly, the product is a bit like the curate's egg - but any group of teachers who facilitate the proficiency in English that I've observed in students here over the years is to be congratulated. I would be very surprised if, in Engish-speaking countries, we would be nearly as successful in producing such a general proficiency in the use of Chinese.

The sad thing is that there is a certain degree of false satisfaction about what is being done and too often the matter of "face" gets in the road of on-going learning by Chinese teachers. The good that is being achieved could, so easily, be so much better. If Chinese teachers chose to take the outside assistance that is offered and that they pay so handsomely for, if Chinese teachers chose to adopt the notion for themselves of "lifetime" learning, things would be much better.

I could fill volumes on this point. But enough.

[joe greene]

I once had an English major tell me that she had no need for a FT. She claimed that her Chinese teachers were all she needed to learn the language. FTs, in her mind, were a waste of time.

Imagine trying to learn a language and shielding yourself from any contact with native users. I suppose being in a closed system is comforting ...

[go_ABs]

Maybe I'm in a minority here, but I've never had anyone claim to teach 'Chinese English'. This is my first year, so I obviously don't know huge numbers of local English teachers. The few I do know, however, are always humble about their English skills. If I ever correct their spoken English, I do so subtly so others don't overhear, and politely. And they always seem most grateful.

It could be, of course, that they are 'grateful' until I leave, at which time they start abusing me terribly, but after knowing them for a little while now, I don't think so.

Old Dog has obviously been around longer than me, but maybe it's not as bad as all that, at least not everywhere?

Just my two cents.

[Roger]

A novel way of looking at this problem - it never crossed my mind that the Chinese might actually be creating this Chinglish thing on purpose although I have for years been observing that their teaching works at cross-purposes.

I disagree with the claim that they are learning a "reasonable" amount of English; this simply is ridiculous. They learn and re-learn by rote, and anything that's merely memorised and piled into one's memory gets mislaid or forgotten. Such data must be recycled in practical situations, which do not get created here. There is a quantitative approach to learning English - the largest number of vocables by the largest number of learners.
Typically an university will tell you your students must "master 8000 English words at the end of the academic year". How narrow-minded!

But I do agree in saying that many don't really accept us in our capacity as facilitators of English communcations. They do believe Chinese teachers are by dint of being bilingual in their first tongue and in the target language SUPERIOR to us.
This may be one reason why we are attributed those highly unproductive and senseless conversation lessons. And why our grades don't matter one jota.

Daily, I have my communciation problems with CHinese students who don't the heck get it when I say they must use a PAST TENSE, or make their SUBJECT AGREE WITH THE VERB. They don't even understand words like "infinitive" or "article", let alone "plural" or "singular".

My students have had English for up to ten yeatheir CHinese interferes so heavy-handedly with English I often want to throw the towel: a guy writing "the people walks over the load..."

"Load" - the same word as in Cantonese! Let alone the problematic use of the word "people"...

My job is to REPAIR their English communcation skills, which means I have to give them a firmer grip on grammar! Is there enough time in one course? Of course not! I have to actually even teach them when to use capital letters, when lower-case letters, how to separate words, punctuation, to name but the very obvious!

[Norman Bethune]

[quanxie]

After teaching at three different Universities here I have never heard any of the Chinese teachers claim to be teaching "Chinglish" or "Chinese English".

In my opinion every country has a slightly different approach to the teaching of English as a second language. In China English is still a foreign language experiment and will take time to transition to being used as a second language.

The problems with this transition from EFL to ESL are many. But I feel that as long as the government keeps funding this experiment the problems will work themselves out.

Relax and enjoy yourself, life is too short... The world will be fine without you...

[Spiderman Too]

joe greene wrote:-

[kev7161]

I also agree with Norman. However, if I would have known 20 years ago that I was going to be living in China for a couple of years, I probably (PROBABLY) would have studied and learned Chinese instead of wasting my time on that "useless" Spanish language! Students learn higher maths in high school (and college as well) - - is every student going to use that math in their real worlds once they are finished with their schooling? No, of course not. Will they use the science they learn? the history? the geography? Who knows? The thing is, most high school students don't have a clear plan on what their lives will bring. That is why we teachers try to give them a good, rounded education. After college, they may never use English again in their entire lives. I know I rarely (if ever) use Algebra in my day-to-day life.

What I would like to see, though, is for my students to put in as much effort in my English class as I see many of them do in their Math class (or in their basketball playing). Good lord, even if they are just pretending to be learning or paying attention during a lesson is better than the sleeping, chatting, and so on I get instead. I'm sure I was a somewhat typical high schooler and, once I left those previously mentioned Spanish classes, I rarely spoke a word of Spanish to my friends and family. But I do remember that, while I was in my classroom, I practiced and studied and passed my three years of classes with flying colors.

[joe greene]

My point was that ... ah, forget it. Look here:

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?p=154027&highlight=#154027

The good doctor is on to something.

[Ben H Nevis Jnr.]

Suppose China continues to push English as a second language until the stage where more or less everyone speaks a little. Suppose China then, for whatever reason, implodes upon itself and splits up into its various regions. With most seperatist movements there seems to be a surge in concern for all things local, so let's assume the various mutually unintelligible regional dialects/languages get installed as the official languages of these new countries ? What will the 'second' language be then ?

Would resentment of what may be seen as a colonial language lead them to use "Chinese English" as the lingua franca between regions instead of Putonghua Mandarin ?

Might the decrease in collective "Chinese" identity also lead to an adoption of Roman script for their new national languages, or at least some form of alphabet ? Or would each region exhume their own archaic system of hieroglyphics from 2000 B.C which are even more complex than written Mandarin ?

Either way, it may make learning English a less daunting prospect than Mandarin.

If "American English" is in the process of not only modifying but replacing "British English" by sheer weight of numbers, then what's the likelyhood of this so called "Chinese English" doing the same in the future ? Ok, it's probably not possible in native speaking countries, but could it potentially happen in the rest of Asia ?

Or am I merely misunderestimating the situation ?

[Old Dog]

Actually, while I hear the term, Chinese English, I don't take it seriously. Such a thing does not exist. It's just trotted out as an excuse when a less-than-perfect Chinese English teacher is caught out having made an absolutely gross error through ignorance. A lot of face is thus saved!

[Atlas]

Yes, that is a real factor that is easily overlooked. Error singles them out.

So we are teaching against their desire to be overlooked. What shame to make an error! How rude of us to point it out in a classroom! I guess they want to improve without actual scrutiny.

Our problem is we are actually addressing some of the social problems as they surface in the cultural contrasts of our languages. We try too hard. Let it go. Don't care. That is what one experienced Chinese teacher advised me.

Some Teaching Hurdles:

Unbridled materialism
Undeveloped critical thinking skill
Culturalizing Passive Aggression & Unaccountability
Woodenheadedness
Racism
Oppression
And the desire to use English without understanding (or wanting to understand) its globalized implications or RESPONSIBILITIES.

This is why, in my opinion, all talk of China emerging as the next great civilization sounds more like propaganda than reality. In too many ways China represents a lack of all the other civil revolutions which came before except perhaps for agrarianism and socialism (and we know how that one turns out). Other countries like the Chinese consumer market and the beautiful arts, etc, but frankly the social system is anachronistic, not the next great innovation. The only thing I see is market pandering. Christmas music in July. They just don' t get it

Whoopee. China discovers materialism. But if they think the rest of the world is so malleable, so easily bought off, they underestimate our own critical thinking and historical imagination. Scientific truth has value in our educations, and our students are often intrinsically motivated! Not so easily snowed!