|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
wombat
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 134
|
 Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:40 am Post subject: Ownership of your Alien Resident Certificate (ARC) |
 |
|
The distinguished gentleman from Canada, Mr. Jason Seeburn, has put to this forum that the ownership of the Alien Resident Certificate (ARC) issued by the relevant authority here in Taiwan is the property of the school or institution through which one is employed. The distinguished gentleman from Canada, Mr. Jason Seeburn, further puts forward the suggestion that the institution or school through which one is employed maintains the right to hold the ARC, and that the individual named on the card has no right to it.
I would like to proffer an argument in reply to the distinguished gentleman from Canada, Mr. Jason Seeburn. Below one can find the legislation pertinent to the argument at hand:
| Quote: |
Immigration Act
Article 26
Aliens, at the age of fourteen and over, who have entered the State for a visit, residence or permanent residence, shall always carry their passports, Alien Resident Certificates, or Alien Permanent Resident Certificates.
The Authority or authorized government employees in compliance with the Act while performing official duties may demand aliens to produce the documents stated in the preceding paragraph.
An English language version of this document can be viewed here:
http://www.buxiban.com/Legislationview.asp?cde=1&subcde=1&itmcde=10 |
| Quote: |
'Regulations Governing the Visiting, Residence, and Permanent Residence of Aliens'.
Article 2
When residing within the territory of ROC, aliens aged 14 and over are required by paragraph 1 of Article 26 of the Act to carry with them passports, Alien Resident Certificates or alien permanent resident certificates.
When the above-mentioned certificates and documents are not available, aliens should carry with them other documents of identification accepted by the Authority.
An English language version of this document can be viewed here:
http://www.buxiban.com/Legislationview.asp?cde=1&subcde=1&itmcde=18 |
I welcome the distinguished gentleman from Canada, Mr. Jason Seeburn, to provide some regulatory evidence of his own that disproves the above. Maybe the kind sir would also like to provide some links to the legislation that confirms his rather outrageous suggestion that the Alien Resident Certificate (ARC) upon which the users picture and personal details are held, is in fact owned by the employer. We shall aait the evidence that you have at hand kind sir.
The distinguished gentleman from �Down Under�, Mr. A. Cute and Furry Wombat |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 9:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Thanks wombat, very useful. Where are you in Taiwan these days? Taipei? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Xenophobe
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 163
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:33 pm Post subject: ARC |
|
|
While my family and I were living in Kaohsiung, there were two occasions that I remember the police coming to our building asking to see an ARC. They were also asking Taiwanese for their IDs as well, to make sure that the address on their IDs matched nthat of their current residence.
Any school that holds your ARC should be told to eat doo doo (and I don't mean doo doo how  ) and die! Taiwanese employers maybe able to pull that crap on Fillipinos and get away with it, but be aware that it is illegal. They can't hold your passport either, though some unscrupulous individuals might try. We always did our own paperwork with the MOFA and FAP because they understood english very well. We also saw that it was done to our satisfaction and that at no time did our documentation fall into unauthorized hands. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 4:28 am Post subject: Re: Ownership of your Alien Resident Certificate (ARC) |
|
|
| wombat wrote: |
The distinguished gentleman from Canada, Mr. Jason Seeburn, has put to this forum that the ownership of the Alien Resident Certificate (ARC) issued by the relevant authority here in Taiwan is the property of the school or institution through which one is employed. The distinguished gentleman from Canada, Mr. Jason Seeburn, further puts forward the suggestion that the institution or school through which one is employed maintains the right to hold the ARC, and that the individual named on the card has no right to it.
I would like to proffer an argument in reply to the distinguished gentleman from Canada, Mr. Jason Seeburn. Below one can find the legislation pertinent to the argument at hand:
| Quote: |
Immigration Act
Article 26
Aliens, at the age of fourteen and over, who have entered the State for a visit, residence or permanent residence, shall always carry their passports, Alien Resident Certificates, or Alien Permanent Resident Certificates.
The Authority or authorized government employees in compliance with the Act while performing official duties may demand aliens to produce the documents stated in the preceding paragraph.
An English language version of this document can be viewed here:
http://www.buxiban.com/Legislationview.asp?cde=1&subcde=1&itmcde=10 |
| Quote: |
'Regulations Governing the Visiting, Residence, and Permanent Residence of Aliens'.
Article 2
When residing within the territory of ROC, aliens aged 14 and over are required by paragraph 1 of Article 26 of the Act to carry with them passports, Alien Resident Certificates or alien permanent resident certificates.
When the above-mentioned certificates and documents are not available, aliens should carry with them other documents of identification accepted by the Authority.
An English language version of this document can be viewed here:
http://www.buxiban.com/Legislationview.asp?cde=1&subcde=1&itmcde=18 |
I welcome the distinguished gentleman from Canada, Mr. Jason Seeburn, to provide some regulatory evidence of his own that disproves the above. Maybe the kind sir would also like to provide some links to the legislation that confirms his rather outrageous suggestion that the Alien Resident Certificate (ARC) upon which the users picture and personal details are held, is in fact owned by the employer. We shall aait the evidence that you have at hand kind sir.
The distinguished gentleman from �Down Under�, Mr. A. Cute and Furry Wombat |
Distinguished? Dude, you're too funny. Not to get too technical for you or use big words that you won't understand, but what I mean is that when you get an ARC in Taiwan it is not yours. I don't mean the physical piece of laminated paper. I don't know who that belongs to. God maybe. The paper prince? The tree the paper came from? Try to expand your mind a bit and see the big picture. I mean that the ARC is tied to the school you work at. If you didn't work at that school, you could not get an ARC. You need a school. No school, no ARC. This is the same as Korea where you can't get a resident certificate without a school. In both places, it is tied to the school and you need permission to transfer it. That is what I mean. The school may try to keep the card and give you a photocopy (which actually works fine with the police, but you need the original to leave the country or buy a motorbike). You get too involved with picky little things and miss the whole thrust of the conversation. Typical of foreigners on that island. You'll notice if you ever go to Japan that you can actually get a resident working visa without actually having an employer. And you can use it to work anywhere that you like. And you don't need permission to transfer it from one school to another. It belongs to you, as a live document. Not as a piece of paper. Grabbing something and saying it is yours does not, in any civilized society, make it yours, especially if you are dealing with a metaphysical document like an ARC. You might have the piece of paper in your pocket, but the live document and the legalities that it is tied to, are not yours. They belong to the school, and so do you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 4:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Seeburn, you're equivocating. Please read wombat's entire post. He demonstrates conclusively that the information you were providing was not only false, but completely uninformed. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Xenophobe
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 163
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 5:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
You could say the same thing about your passport. It doesn't belong to you, but to the gov't of your nation. They can choose to strip it from you or refuse to issue one to you if they feel so inclined. The ARC is tied to your work visa, which the school sponsors. If you change employers that is reflected on the back of your ARC, which you retain.
Also, if you stay in Taiwan for seven years you are eligible for permanent residency status. Once you have this you don't need to have a sponsor, as you can work for whomever you please. You do however need to retain your ARC for ID purposes.
________________________________________________________
Those who think they know everything, annoy those of us who really do.
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Jason, you are completely uninformed on this issue. It's just your ego responding now. The ARC card is produced by the government and you are REQUIRED to carry it. Not a copy; the actual card. Did you read any of the LAWS posted by wombat? Your school had no right to withold your ARC. What they did is not standard procedure. Are you going to say, with your one experince in Taiwan, that it is? You're just arguing because, as you said a while ago, you like to "win" arguments. Truth and reality don't seem to matter. Give your ego a rest and learn. So, you were wrong on this. Big deal. Now you are better prepared if and when you ever come here again. Just let the issue die. The horse died long ago; time to stop kicking. You're not going to be able tell a bunch of Taiwan residents much about the laws affecting us from your location in Toronto. We just know more about this place and its laws, people, language and way of life than you do. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wombat
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 134
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 8:18 am Post subject: Re: Ownership of your Alien Resident Certificate (ARC) |
|
|
Yeah, you go Jason.
I could have sworn that you said that the ARC is not the teachers. Maybe I was mistaken and owe you an apology�Oh, wait a minute. Ah, yes. Here it is.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| i repeat what I said originally (though on this forum, I doubt it matters). The ARC is not yours. |
Oh, and again.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| ...but what I mean is that when you get an ARC in Taiwan it is not yours. |
Well, you keep banging your head against the brick wall and we�ll all sit back, watch, and have a good laugh.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| If you didn't work at that school, you could not get an ARC. |
Well that's one way to look at it I suppose, but then I think most people would use an ounce of logic just go and get an ARC at the school down the street.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| This is the same as Korea where you can't get a resident certificate without a school. In both places, it is tied to the school and you need permission to transfer it. That is what I mean. |
Oh! Now I understand clearly what you are trying to say. How silly of me!
Wait a minute! That is wrong anyway. You have always been able to transfer your ARC to another school, and for some time now you have been able to do this without the permission or even knowledge of the school that you currently work for.
No matter which way you look at it Jason, you are, well, just plain wrong. Again!
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| Typical of foreigners on that island. |
What's wrong with foreigners on 'this' island. I am sure that we would all love to hear what you think of us.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| You'll notice if you ever go to Japan that you.... |
Yoo-hoo! Jason! This is the Taiwan forum and all of us are living here in Taiwan. Who cares what the situation is in Japan. This has no relevance to the situation in Taiwan. You're probably even wrong about Japan too. That's probably changed since you were last there.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| Grabbing something and saying it is yours does not, in any civilized society, make it yours.... |
Perhaps not. But the law clearly says it is mine so that's good enough for me. Who am I to believe Jason in Toronto, or the rules of common sense coupled with the legislation of the government that controls the land on which I live? I'll give that guy in Toronto a miss.
Thanks, Fortigurn. I am living in Taipei and quite enjoying it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ScottSommers
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 82
Location: Taiwan
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 2:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I think what Jason means is that in Japan you can self-sponsor. There is a process by which if you can guarantee enough part-time and private work, you can obtain a permit to stay in the country. In Taiwan and Korea, this is not possible. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
markholmes
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 661
Location: Wengehua
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 5:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Wait a minute! That is wrong anyway. You have always been able to transfer your ARC to another school, and for some time now you have been able to do this without the permission or even knowledge of the school that you currently work for. |
They may have been true in law, but not in practice. Hardly anybody ever got their ARC transfered from one school to another, because this was something most schools were not prepared to do (there was no advantage to them doing this).
I've read the new rules about adding schools to ARCs but have yet to hear a first hand account.
It is true that the teacher owns the hard copy of the ARC, but does not own the ARC itself (whether in law or in practice), which essentially belongs to the school.
The law and reality are two separate issues in Taiwan and by quoting law you are not showing the real situation. Mr Seeburn is right in practice.
Seeburn wrote;
| Quote: |
| You'll notice if you ever go to Japan that you can actually get a resident working visa without actually having an employer. And you can use it to work anywhere that you like. And you don't need permission to transfer it from one school to another. It belongs to you, as a live document. Not as a piece of paper. Grabbing something and saying it is yours does not, in any civilized society, make it yours, especially if you are dealing with a metaphysical document like an ARC. You might have the piece of paper in your pocket, but the live document and the legalities that it is tied to, are not yours. They belong to the school, and so do you. |
Totally true. Mr Seeburn may (or may not) have had only one job experience in Taiwan, but he appears to have had experiences in other countries (as have I), so is in a position to compare.
This discussion is not about truth. It is a battle for dominance of this board by ego. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rice Paddy Daddy
Joined: 11 Jul 2004
Posts: 425
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Jason Seeburn is correct, in my opinion.
Firstly, the ARC is the property of the Taiwanese Government and must be returned to the Taipei Foreign Affairs Police before you leave the country for good.
That is, according to the law you must relenquish the ARC. If I had to guess, though, not many people actually return their ARC to the police.
Secondaly, Seeburn is right in that we may apply for and obtain a "self-sponsored" work permit in Japan if we can show Immigration that we make a certain amount of money each month - Y250,000 or so, if I remember correctly.
I just remembered - we also "own" our work permit in that it is not 'tied' or 'sponsored' by a language school, unlike the situation in Korea and Taiwan. I can quit my job tomorrow and walk down the street and get a new job without having to go to the police or any other government agency to report my job status.
Also, my work permit is good for 3 years.
Finally, if Wombat is saying that we can "transfer" are ARC, then s/he is wrong.
We cannot "transfer" our ARCs in Taiwan. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| markholmes wrote: |
| It is true that the teacher owns the hard copy of the ARC, but does not own the ARC itself (whether in law or in practice), which essentially belongs to the school. |
The hard copy of the ARC is what was initially in question. When it became apparent to Seeburn that he was wrong on the issue of the ownership of the hard copy, he decided to equivocate and reword his argument to apply to the ARC itself.
This does not change the fact that the initial argument he made (the hard copy of the ARC does not belong to you), is false. The hard copy of the ARC does belong to you, and you must carry the original at all times, regardless of what Seeburn believes.
| Quote: |
| The law and reality are two separate issues in Taiwan and by quoting law you are not showing the real situation. Mr Seeburn is right in practice. |
Seeburn wasn't actually right in law or practice, he was wrong. Because he was wrong, he resorted to a fallacy of equivocation which has resulted in a new issue being discussed. But that issue was not the original issue, on which he has already been proved wrong. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Rice Paddy Daddy wrote: |
Jason Seeburn is correct, in my opinion.
Firstly, the ARC is the property of the Taiwanese Government and must be returned to the Taipei Foreign Affairs Police before you leave the country for good.
That is, according to the law you must relenquish the ARC. If I had to guess, though, not many people actually return their ARC to the police. |
This doesn't actually adress the initial issue, which was whether or not the ARC belongs to you for legal and practical purposes, during your stay in Taiwan. It does.
Seeburn was arguing that it does not, because he was attempting to justify the decision of his school to hold his ARC and give him a photocopy instead. That decision was not lawful, and was certainly not usual practice. He did not have to relinquish his ARC to the school, because he owned it, not them. Likewise, no one has to relinquish their ARC to the government until they leave the country.
| Quote: |
Finally, if Wombat is saying that we can "transfer" are ARC, then s/he is wrong.
We cannot "transfer" our ARCs in Taiwan. |
I don't believe that wombat was talking about transferring ARCs, but transferring from one school to another, and having the new school registered on the ARC. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wombat
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 134
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Rice Paddy Daddy wrote: |
Secondaly, Seeburn is right in that we may apply for and obtain a "self-sponsored" work permit in Japan if we can show Immigration that we make a certain amount of money each month - Y250,000 or so, if I remember correctly.
I just remembered - we also "own" our work permit in that it is not 'tied' or 'sponsored' by a language school, unlike the situation in Korea and Taiwan. I can quit my job tomorrow and walk down the street and get a new job without having to go to the police or any other government agency to report my job status. |
| markholmes wrote: |
| Totally true. Mr Seeburn may (or may not) have had only one job experience in Taiwan, but he appears to have had experiences in other countries (as have I), so is in a position to compare. |
Well good for Jason if his information about Japan is right. Maybe Jason should head over to the Japan forum and post over there. None of this takes away from the fact that his comments about the situation in Japan have no relevance to the discussion that we are having here about ARC ownership in Taiwan, and that is what I stated to his earlier mention of Japan.
| markholmes wrote: |
| Hardly anybody ever got their ARC transfered from one school to another, because this was something most schools were not prepared to do (there was no advantage to them doing this). |
I will certainly not dispute the fact that some schools in the past have blocked ARC transfers. This was one of the inadequacies of the previous system, and this is one of the benefits of the recent changes. As the comments that yourself and Jason seem to be making relate to the old system, I don�t know what else I can say on this matter. For newbies arriving in Taiwan or even teachers who are currently living here but looking at changing employers, none of the past situations are really of any consequence in my opinion and this is why I have chosen to ignore that. I suggest that it is better to discuss what the situation is now, but if you want to keep discussing what was relevant in the past then please feel free to do so.
| markholmes wrote: |
| I've read the new rules about adding schools to ARCs but have yet to hear a first hand account. |
And hopefully you are not suggesting that the rules are wrong just because you haven�t seen it in practice!
As to the current situation with transferring your ARC, you most certainly can do this in the manner that I have stated. This is clearly a right that one has, and don�t be misled just because you can�t see it working or because your school or friends don�t know about it.
| Rice Paddy Daddy wrote: |
Firstly, the ARC is the property of the Taiwanese Government and must be returned to the Taipei Foreign Affairs Police before you leave the country for good.
That is, according to the law you must relenquish the ARC. If I had to guess, though, not many people actually return their ARC to the police. |
I don�t disagree with this and this has never been in contention. The discussion is whether your school retains ownership of your ARC or you. Quite clearly the school has no right to your ARC, but you have the right and in fact an obligation to retain in it in your possession. This is both common sense and clearly written in the legislation. That is the crux of the discussion.
| markholmes wrote: |
| It is true that the teacher owns the hard copy of the ARC, but does not own the ARC itself (whether in law or in practice), which essentially belongs to the school. |
| Rice Paddy Daddy wrote: |
Finally, if Wombat is saying that we can "transfer" are ARC, then s/he is wrong.
We cannot "transfer" our ARCs in Taiwan. |
I disagree and ask what basis you make these claims upon. If you are going to suggest that what I have written is incorrect then please at least show the respect of supporting your claim as I have done. If it just your personal feeling or gut instinct then please state this.
Jason quite clearly stated that his school never gave him his ARC. He then went on to state that they have no obligation to do so as the school owns it anyway. His post suggests that this is the standard practice when in fact it is not. Commonsense dictates that the ARC is your ID card and that you need to have it on your person. This is what everyone expects and everyone (with the exception of Jason and maybe a handful of others) finds. It is clearly yours, and the legislation that I have provided proves this. Of course the final ownership of this official document would be offcialdom. Again this is just commonsense, and I don�t believe that it was ever in dispute. What was in dispute was whether you or your school had the right to ownership (as far as possession) of the ARC. Quite clearly Jason was wrong in his assertion that the school has this right.
| markholmes wrote: |
| They may have been true in law, but not in practice. |
| markholmes wrote: |
The law and reality are two separate issues in Taiwan and by quoting law you are not showing the real situation. Mr Seeburn is right in practice.
|
I couldn�t disagree more with the above comments which I read as suggesting that legislation is not relevant here in Taiwan. I rely on legislation rather hearsay as I know from personal experience that this is what counts. It seems that I am one of the few foreigners here who has a first hand experience with the legislation and it�s application in real life experiences. I have used my understanding of the legislation to my advantage on a couple of occasions, and I have found that those who �phooey� the legislation either don�t have a good understanding of it, or have never been in a situation whereby they have used it.
I have been through �the system� on a couple of occasions and I know from personal experience that it is in fact what is written in the legislation that becomes the deciding factor in a dispute, and not what people �tend to do� or how they �tend to do it�. I agree that in everyday situations that the legislation has only a basic relevance as people here do things the way that they do them, and so do I. In many cases that is fine as no one loses, and everyone is happy. The fact remains however that if you don�t know your rights you leave yourself vulnerable to being taken advantage of, and your rights are clearly stated in the legislation. If you choose to ignore this as you feel that it has no relevance to your Taiwan experience then that is your choice, but please don�t attempt to suggest that the laws are not applicable. They most certainly are.
| markholmes wrote: |
| This discussion is not about truth. It is a battle for dominance of this board by ego. |
As a relative newbie to this forum yourself, I would suggest that do a bit of research on Mr Seeburn�s historical posts on this forum before you make such comments. The reason that a couple of posters on this forum, including myself, are so hard on Mr Seeburn would become evident if you were aware of his past behavior on this board � most of which was deleted long ago by the moderators.
Fortigurn - I couldn't (and unfortunately didn't) say it so well myself. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
Isn't it interesting that Seeburn, Holmes and Rice Paddy Daddy all do not live in Taiwan? Sorry, but it just invalidates a lot of what you say; and it is relevent to this discussion as it suggests how much you are likely to know about the legislation that effects the lives of foreign residents in Taiwan.
I have been contemplating a job change or taking a second job. Employers I have talked to have described the process of switching jobs much as it was described by Wombat and myself. Also, you can add a second employer to an existing ARC. Did you know that? Probably not as those arguing for school ownership of ARCs and teachers aren't really aware of the relevent rules and legislation.
It's funny someone should call this a contest of egos. I don't see it that way. Someone over at Forumosa described this forum as quickly becoming one where the blind lead the blind. This is because most residents post over there and not here. This place is dominated by noobs and non-residents, so opinions are less informed. When people in Toronto are allowed to spread misinformation and dominate then this place becomes just as it was described on Forumosa.
When I look out my window I don't see Japan, Vancouver or Toronto. When I go through the process of switching jobs (or at least securing a second one), the legislation I deal with is not the legislation from one of the three listed places; it is Taiwanese. When authorities like police ask to see my ID card, they are not asking to see a photocopy. When the government here produces an ID card for me, my employer is not within his rights to withold it and give me only a photocopy. I do not claim to be right on everything; but the likelihood of me being correct concerning matters that affect me in the country in which I live is pretty high when compared to the opinions of those who don't even live here. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
