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vagabon'sean
Joined: 05 Oct 2004
Posts: 5
Location: Mississauga, Ont, CA
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 Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:56 pm Post subject: Need help finding my way to taiwan |
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Ok, I�m sorry to ask questions that have already been covered, but I�m overwhelmed by what I�ve read so far and want to clarify some points/how to go about things.
I am 23 years old, Canadian, white male, respectable appearance, no teaching experience other than some random reading to kid�s type positions. I do not have the actual certificate for my degree (BSc) yet, though I have all the requirements and a bunch of official letters and transcripts etc saying I�ve done everything but convocated. I know that the general advice is to wait till I get that piece of ppr, but I really want to start teaching without it (it�s a huge future pain in the ace if I convocate now since I want to carry the degree on to a 4yr honours BSc in the future).
- Will I be able to find legal work with only the pprs I have? From what I understand the best way to start working is to head over on a 60d tourist visa (please correct me if im wrong, but im pretty sure that that is the recommended visa) and find a job, get them to secure you the ARC and sort out the proper visa (through a visa run to HK?). Will I be able to do this without a proper degree? I really would rather not work illegally since I�ve never done this before and that sounds like a good way to have a bad experience. Do you think heading to the Taiwan consulate here (Canada) and pleading my situation would get me anywhere (like some notarized letter from them saying Ive legitimately completed a BSc?- I�ll likely give this a try anyways since it couldn�t really hurt).
- Is it possible to get a job from here and have the ARC and everything sorted out before I even get there? I know this wouldn�t be the idea way of going about things since I wouldn�t be able to see the school or area I�d potentially be living in, among other downsides, but would ensure I was working legally.
I was also wondering if I should be worrying about getting Dr.�s notes stating that I�m in overall good health. What specific things should this note include if one is needed? I know that a general medical exam is needed for the ARC and have read that its better to have this done in Taiwan since sometimes they don�t accept ones done elsewhere. Would such a note be required when entering the country? Again ill probably get some kind of not from my family Dr. just in case, I am just interested in any specific things I should ask that he mention.
Also I was wondering if I should be pretending to be a tourist when entering the country/applying for visas if I end up going the route of the 60d tourist visa? I guess until I have a job that�s all I really am so its not that far off from being the truith. Once I find a job must I immediately change my VISA to one that�s appropriate for working before I begin to work? Do you have to have the ARC fully processed and acquired before beginning work? Do you normally get a copy/the original ARC or does the school keep it? Are these documents in English or do you have to have them translated? What can you do to ensure that the ARC matches the school if they�re not in English?
Sorry for the huge post with the millions of questions. I really really want to find a way to teach ESL, and I�m just really confused about the details and don�t want to find things out the hard way and get deported or something. I appreciate any help and guidance that you can offer! THANKS A BUNCH!
Sean |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:20 am Post subject: Re: Need help finding my way to taiwan |
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Last edited by jason_seeburn on Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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wombat
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 134
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:32 am Post subject: Re: Need help finding my way to taiwan |
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| vagabon'sean wrote: |
| Will I be able to find legal work with only the pprs I have? From what I understand the best way to start working is to head over on a 60d tourist visa (please correct me if im wrong, but im pretty sure that that is the recommended visa) and find a job, get them to secure you the ARC and sort out the proper visa (through a visa run to HK?). Will I be able to do this without a proper degree? I really would rather not work illegally since I�ve never done this before and that sounds like a good way to have a bad experience. Do you think heading to the Taiwan consulate here (Canada) and pleading my situation would get me anywhere (like some notarized letter from them saying Ive legitimately completed a BSc?- I�ll likely give this a try anyways since it couldn�t really hurt). |
No. It is a situation where a tick in the box on an application form is required. If you don't get a tick in that box then the application will get refused point blank. Pleading will not resolve the situation.
I have read one post where someone claimed to have successfully secured a 'legal' job without the degree document. This is certainly possible, but it is not a legal position, and it is very unlikely to be at a reputable school. With changes to the legislation not long ago, you can legally work before your work permit comes through, so long as your application for a work permit has been submitted. As you can't fulfill the paper criteria at this stage the school would need to hold off submitting your paperwork - whether they tell you this or not. This would mean that you would be working illegally until the paperwork arrives, and would most likely have to undertake a visa run or two before the process was completed. Considering that you have very little chance of securing another 60 day visa within Asia, you would either have to head back home (very expensive) or make do with landing visas until the paperwork was in order, then head out and process your work visa from overseas (again very expensive).
You are better off to wait. Everything will still be here when you get here.
| vagabon'sean wrote: |
| - Is it possible to get a job from here and have the ARC and everything sorted out before I even get there? I know this wouldn�t be the idea way of going about things since I wouldn�t be able to see the school or area I�d potentially be living in, among other downsides, but would ensure I was working legally. |
Yes, it is possible but not very practical. As you seem to realize there are disadvantages in securing work from overseas and committing to that job before you have seen the school. Go the way that most go and come here before you commit to anything.
| vagabon'sean wrote: |
| I was also wondering if I should be worrying about getting Dr.�s notes stating that I�m in overall good health. What specific things should this note include if one is needed? I know that a general medical exam is needed for the ARC and have read that its better to have this done in Taiwan since sometimes they don�t accept ones done elsewhere. Would such a note be required when entering the country? Again ill probably get some kind of not from my family Dr. just in case, I am just interested in any specific things I should ask that he mention. |
No. You would be wasting your money as this isn't required for a visa to come here, and would be unlikely to be recognized for the work permit application. Just follow the process once you get here, it is much easier.
| vagabon'sean wrote: |
| Also I was wondering if I should be pretending to be a tourist when entering the country/applying for visas if I end up going the route of the 60d tourist visa? I guess until I have a job that�s all I really am so its not that far off from being the truith. Once I find a job must I immediately change my VISA to one that�s appropriate for working before I begin to work? Do you have to have the ARC fully processed and acquired before beginning work? Do you normally get a copy/the original ARC or does the school keep it? Are these documents in English or do you have to have them translated? What can you do to ensure that the ARC matches the school if they�re not in English? |
What box you tick on the visa application is entirely up to you. In order to improve your chances in getting a 60 day visa, you would be well advised to tick 'Travel'. The system is really set up to encourage this 'dishonesty' as there is no legitimate way to come here to look for work. The fact is that until you find a job and sign up, you are effectively a temporary resident or tourist. You will be travelling arond and taking in the sites just as tourists do. Provided that you have all of your paperwork in hand, once you find a position the application for your work permit can be made, and as I mentioned earlier you will be legal the whole time.
Documents in English do not need to be translated into Chinese as English is an accepted language. If your documents are in Latin or some other language then translation may be required.
You keep your ARC with you at all times. It is a small card that acts as your ID card. Don't give out photocopies of this willy-nilly either. |
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wombat
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 134
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:52 am Post subject: Re: Need help finding my way to taiwan |
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This is a Jason Seeburn Disclaimer
Whatever you do, ignore the advice of Jason Seeburn if you are concerned at all about the accuracy of the information given. As may have noticed already on this board Seeburn has been to Taiwan once, he lived in Taiwan for nine months for a single school, and he left some time ago. This does not make all of his advice wrong, but shows the limitations to the accuracy of the information that he gives.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| it's a standard test. Really easy. Sh*t and p*ss in a cup, take some blood, check your eyesight (and measure your height!?!) and you are done. Takes twenty minutes. School pays for it. In your case, it won't matter, because you can't get an ARC without a degree anyway. |
Westerners are generally not required to do a poo test. If you are in Taipei and they suggest that you need it, be polite and just say that you don�t need it. They seldom offer this anymore as even they know that it isn�t required.
Most schools do not pay for the medical as it is something that you do prior to really starting work for them. Some do pay of course, but often they are the more desperate kinds of schools, or the schools that are offering you such a bad deal that you end up paying for the test ten fold during the course of the year. Do the test off your own bat and then you own the results � don�t let a school pay for it, this is just a false economy.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| Yep, you're a tourist. Don't say anything, just hand them your documents, they stamp the visa, hand it back, then you walk through. They can't speak English anyway and they know you can't speak Chinese. |
Well considering that he will be making his application for a visa in Canada, I am sure that you will find that the staff processing the visa are actually fluent in English. I agree that you don�t need to say too much, and in fact the less you say the better. I disagree with the suggestion that the immigration staff here in Taiwan do not speak English. They do. You are no doubt one of those morons that stands there yacking away in English in front of them, assuming that they don�t understand a word that you are saying, when in fact they understand quite well.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| I didn't. I don't know if it was legal or not, but I worked for two months with no ARC before I got one. They will just make you work anyway. |
It wasn�t legal back at the time that Seeburn was here, so he was working illegally for two months. It is however legal to do this now. The process changed when the CLA took over control of this from the MOE.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| They give you a photocopy if they paid for it. It is in Chinese. Yes, definately check the school's name. Sometimes the school you are working at will not be the issuing school. |
Seeburn if all you got from your school was a photocopy of your ARC then you got duped. It is advice like this that makes me wonder whether you even had an ARC, as surely no one could be so stupid or naive as to think that this is acceptable. You own your ARC whether the school chooses to pay for it or not. It is effectively your ID while you are here in Taiwan and is required for all sorts of things from processing paperwork, buying a motorbike etc. I realize that you were here in some small country town in central-southern Taiwan for only nine months, and therefore may have got away without the need for your actual ARC, but it is wrong to suggest that you don�t get the original. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| It is definitely wise to ignore seeburn's advice. It must be nearly two years since he lived here now. When he lived here it was only for nine months (I even think that figure was rounded up). He wasn't here long enough to know what was going on around him. A lot of his information is incorrect. Most of what is correct, he has gleaned from other users posts on this board. |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: Need help finding my way to taiwan |
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Last edited by jason_seeburn on Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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wombat
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 134
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:24 am Post subject: Re: Need help finding my way to taiwan |
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Welcome back Jason, your posts are entertaining if nothing else. MOD EDIT
MOD EDIT
How immature!
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| Economy? I consider it a benefit. If they don't pay, I'd go elsewhere. Why work for cheapstakes? If they are like that when you are new, imagine how bad it will be in a month or so, once they have you ARC'd to them and you are their personal possession. |
Yes, I guess that this is one way to look at it. The wrong way! There are plenty of teachers here. Decent schools don�t need to offer as many perks as schools without reputations or with poor reputations. Schools in cities don�t need to offer as many perks as schools in rural areas. No school owner wants to offer perks, but they need to in order to make their job more marketable. As with anything that comes sugar coated, there may be a reason.
This is not to say that every job that offers these things is a bad job. Some schools are genuine about their offer in trying to make new arrivals more comfortable. It is very naive however to take a position just because they cover the cost of your medical and ARC etc. I mean we are only talking about a saving of a few thousand out of pocket at the most, at a loss of freedom to take another job, or freedom to change your mind.
The above holds true in Jason�s case. From his own account, the school that he worked at offering these benefits was a band new school in a rural area with no reputation. Now in his case he seems to have gotten lucky and enjoyed his time there, but it could have easily gone the other way.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| Talking in English to whom? If they can't understand, why would I talk? And they can't, BTW. |
Jason you just don�t get it. The �Visa Office� and �Immigration� are different. The original postee was talking about the visa office in his or her own country where visa applications are made. You seem to be talking about Immigration and Customs here in Taiwan. The staff at the visa office back home will speak fluent English. The staff within immigration will be a mixed bag. Those that have direct contact with foreigners will be adequately fluent. The staff at the processing counter will have abilities that will vary but all do speak some level of English. These are the guys who stamp your passport and as we all know there is very little reason to even talk to them unless there is a problem. In the case of a problem they would generally call over a supervisor anyway.
Jason only arrived and departed Taiwan once so I guess that his limited experience in this regard is the reason for the inaccuracies of his post.
MOD EDIT
How immature!
Once again Jason is wrong. My only hope is that he will come back to Taiwan and try to do exactly what he suggests. He will more than likely be in for a rude shock. The fact is that in rural areas the English language abilities of police officers is a lot lower than the abilities of their city counterparts. Cops in rural areas just don�t need to know English, and that�s quite reasonable. In the larger centers the majority of police will have some level of ability. There are English speaking officers in all areas that can be called upon to deal with a problem in English.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| Quote: |
| It wasn�t legal back at the time that Seeburn was here, so he was working illegally for two months. It is however legal to do this now. The process changed when the CLA took over control of this from the MOE. |
so in other words it still isn't legal, but no one cares anymore. |
How do you work that out? No, it is legal.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Seeburn if all you got from your school was a photocopy of your ARC then you got duped. |
Why? They had the original. I took it when I travelled and when I bought my bike. They kept it at the school because the police would visit them and they'd have to produce it. Happened often. |
MOD EDIT you are required by law to carry your ARC with you at all times. This is just commonsense. Your ARC is effectively your ID card and the legislation clearly states that you must carry it for identification purposes at all times. As such you need your original ARC card when you do anything official. The fact that you were here for only nine months, and in a small town is not representative of what the majority of people face when they live in Taiwan. You need your original ARC. You are entitled to your original ARC. If your school doesn�t give it to you then you need to seek assistance in securing it.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| Whether you should get it and whether you do get it are two different things. And whether you own it is a very murky thing, seeing as it is not your personal work permit, but is tied to the school you work at and cannot be readily transfered without the school's permission. Anyone who suggests that foreigners in Taiwan "own" their work permits is spreading very seriously misleading information, as this is not the case. As with Korea, the work permit is tied to the school. Japan is the only major ESL teaching country that I know of where you own your own work permit and it is not tied to the school you work at. |
Once again Jason you are confusing yourself and are in danger of confusing the readers of this board. Your lack of knowledge and experience in all of this really shows when you make posts such as the above. You always claimed to be heavily involved in the startup of your school, but the inaccuracies in your posts do not suggest this claim to be true.
The work permit and the Alien Residency Certificate (ARC) are two entirely different things. I never said that you own the work permit. I said that you own your ARC and that you should have it in your possession.
The work permit is a letter written in Chinese that is next to useless to a foreigner. It is just a step in the process of becoming a legal worker here in Taiwan, and has no other purpose other than to pass onto the next government department in order to fulfill the application procedures. Effectively it is a letter from one government department to the next and I don�t suppose that anyone really owns it as it has no value outside of the application process. Your school applies to the Council of Labor Affairs (CLA) for a work permit. It is issued to you, not the school, but in most cases the school will collect it on your behalf. You then take this to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MOFA) in order to get your resident visa. Once you have a resident visa in your passport then you have seven days to apply for your ARC from the Foreign Affairs Police (FAP). The process is really that simple. Surely even you can understand that Jason.
The ARC is for all intents and purposes your ID card. It is most definitely your document as an individual and has nothing to do with your school, other than the fact that their name will be on it in the space for �Employer�. Should you change to a new employer you keep the same ARC card and just get the new details amendments added to the back of the card. If the card was the property of the school as Jason claims then you would have to give it to the school before you left � which you don�t.
Quick question Jason. What does your �ARC� look like? What color is it? What does it have on the front? What does it have on the back? Is there any English text on it or is it all in Chinese? Let see if you really do have an ARC or not!
Oh, and by the way, do the Chinese clerks in convenience stores in Taiwan say anything to customers as they enter and exit the store? |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| Jason, why argue with people who obviously know what they're talking about? You obviously don't. The ARC card functions in much the same way as the Taiwanese citizen's sheng fen zheng, basically their citizenship ID card. It is an extremely important piece of identification. You need it for all kinds of things here. Heck, I just bought a life insurance/investment policy and had to show it. It is not your employer's property and, if they kept it, it was a ploy to keep you from leaving. It is not normal procedure for schools to do this. You should not suggest that it is, especially if you really don't have a clue. Rather than resorting to four letter words, just be quiet when people point out your errors. They aren't doing it simply tick you off or show you up. You are trying to give advice to people. If that advice is incorrect, pointing out the errors sets the record straight and could save a lot of hassle for new teachers. Give your ego a rest. Fact is, you lived here far short of even one year a period of nearly two years ago now. Perhaps for the sake of accuracy you ought to leave certain kinds of advice to current residents? |
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Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| Well said Wombat and TS. Thanks for bringing some sanity and realism back into this thread. It's a pleasure to receive good advice from people who have actually been here and who know what they are talking about. |
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Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 5:22 am Post subject: |
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Get a 60 day multiple entry visa for business purposes. Ask your travel agent to apply for you and inform the agent that you will not be purchasing the ticket unless you get the visa you require.
You can work legally without a degree if you are enrolled as a student with a student ARC through an accredited university.
You may even be able to apply for a scholarship if you meet the the requirements.
Please keep in mind that the visa process has undergone some changes recently and few people know what the new requirements are particularly the people responsible for issuing the visas.
Many teachers on Taiwan are working illegally. Many of them are not even aware of the fact they are working illegally.
You will have no problem finding a job here on Taiwan. I would suggest that you follow the example of the local population and not concern yourself too much with the legalities involved. Just do it and CYA.
Please read this.
http://www.geocities.com/taiwanteacher2002/Success.html
Good luck,
A. |
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wombat
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 134
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| Aristotle wrote: |
| You can work legally without a degree if you are enrolled as a student with a student ARC through an accredited university. |
This is not correct.
You cannot work legally as a teacher without a degree, work permit, and ARC. I have heard that after you have a proven track record as a student here (i.e. a year or so in the country) that you can then apply for some form of permit to take on some part time work. I say that 'I have heard' this as I have never seen it within any legislation and I don't know anyone who is actually doing it. Personally, I believe that it is a fallacy, but I certainly cannot state that it is not possible. Maybe Aristotle can point us all toward his source on this so that we can clarify this once and for all - and please don't say Tealit!!! That is not a reliable source of information, it is a private company with a vested interest in getting teachers over here.
Without a degree though you couldn't legally teach, so you would have to find some other kind of part time work whatever that may be. |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: Need help finding my way to taiwan |
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Last edited by jason_seeburn on Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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Seeburn, yes you can "transfer" your ARC. Transfer is an outdated term and refers to the old process, BTW. Your employer has no control over you ability to switch jobs now (one could argue they never really did. They certainly don't now). There is a process now that allows you to switch jobs without a visa trip and with the arc switch-over occuring before your old boss knows you intend to quit. Stop posting two year old out dated info. The rules that applied to you-- and you never really knew them did you-- have all changed. As far as the ARC is concerned (ie the actual physical card), it is for you. It is not meant for your boss. The fact that your employer kept yours speaks volumes about that operation. I'll restate for you: what your boss did was not standard procedure. Do not suggest that it is. You are meant to carry your ARC as your main ID here in Taiwan. That is why one is produced for you. In that respect, it is "yours." In actual fact the ARC is government property, but it is not your employer's.
As for trasferring jobs in Taiwan, what do you know about it? You worked in one location and left before the end of even your first contract. You have no idea how the process worked then or now and cannot compare it to other countries as a result.
Nobody is claiming it isn't possible to work illegally by enrolling in Chinese courses, real or imagined. It is illegal, though, to secure employment while in the country on a student visa/ tourist visa extension for study purposes. You cannot argue this. The only debate was whether the student ARC (available from universities) legally allows the student to accept part time work after a time.
Really, Jason, much of what you write is nonsense, and I think you know it. I know you like to "win" arguments regardless of truth, but you clearly have nothing to say to this issue. Your knowledge of things surrounding the ARCs, if we can call it knowledge, is incomplete and incorrect. |
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Mr. Kalgukshi
Mod Team
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 6613
Location: Need to know basis only.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 10:44 pm Post subject: Civil |
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| If the use of "morons" and other such name calling continues, this thread will disappear. Please make your points in a civil manner and consistent with Board policy. This forum is being monitored closely by the Mods and members who choose not to follow the rules can expect to receive the personal attention of the Mod Team. Healthy discussion is encouraged. Please keep it so and take the unhealthy stuff elsewhere. |
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daily chai
Joined: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 150
Location: Brussels
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 8:34 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Mod Kalgukshi for stepping in.
You can work a paltry 10 hours a week while studying. But you are not qualified to work at an English school of any sort w/o a degree, so if you taught at one you'd be illegal. KWIM?
The poo test is required for a family reunification visa regardless of country of origin or recent travel record. Seems outmoded, but my EU spouse had to do one last month. Schools of any sort rarely pay for the medical exam.
Note you will be tested for HIV. Those who test positive are not given permission to work, and probably not to reside either. I know why it's done, but I don't agree with this discrinimation anyway. Do yourself a favor and get tested at home before you leave. (You should always get baseline HIV tests anonymously, as you may encounter difficulties getting medical insurance if you find out through your doctor. ) There is no need to find out that sort of information in a foreign country away from your safety net.
I agree with most of the posters here--stay and finish the degree. The jobs and money will be here waiting. You could try a summer camp somewhere for fun--those aren't legal, but the schools seem to pay off the right people to avoid raids. |
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