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polska
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Posts: 2
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 Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 12:01 am Post subject: ADVICE NEEDED :) |
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Im planing on taking the five day TESOL course in June and travelling to Taiwain to teach English. I dont have a degree, but I have six months experiance at a co-op, do you guys or girls think I will have difficulty finding employment in Taiwain ?
Thanks a lot !
Your advice is much appreciated |
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Taylor
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 384
Location: Texas/Taiwan
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 12:23 am Post subject: |
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It's okay, guys....I'll take this one!
For starters, please learn to spell the name of the country: It's T-A-I-W-A-N.
You might want to brush up on the spelling of contractions, as well.
Other than some basic spelling errors in your post, I'd say, "Go for it!" You had better focus on teaching kids six years old and younger!
Taylor |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 12:54 am Post subject: |
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Polska,
I am sure that you have done your research or have at least read a few of the previous posts on this site. I am sure then that you would realize that you do not qualify for a work permit to teach in Taiwan as you do not have the educational qualifications to do so. Therefore you would not be legally entitled to work here as a teacher, and would need to work illegally should you choose to come. I don't disagree that working illegally is a distinct possibility. I do disagree that you should do so however.
My advice - make enquiries about teaching in other countries in Asia where your educational qualifications may not be so important. |
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Xenophobe
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 163
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:02 am Post subject: |
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With those spelling skills you'd have no problem getting a teaching job with any school division in Canada, as you'd fit in with all the proponents of Whole Language.  |
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Hap Thorton
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 17
Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:19 am Post subject: |
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It's okay, guys....I'll take this one!
Calm down there, Taylor. The person is asking for some help, not condescending snorts, wise@SS comments, and questionable advice. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| I agree with griswald. Working illegally is possible here, but I don't think it is worth it. It's getting harder and harder to work here illegally. I think in the near future it may become all but impossible. Anyway, your job options will be severely limted, should you come here without the minimum education requirement. You will have to pay for bogus Chinese classes, and may or may not be compelled to attend them, cutting into earnings and savings potential. You'll have to make regular visa trips. And you'll constantly be risking deportation, however, small that risk is in reality. |
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Ki
Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 475
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| Just think of paying for chinese classes as a kind of tax. As you wouldn't be paying tax to the government it will work out pretty much the same. And you can actually attend the classes if you want. |
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Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:55 am Post subject: |
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You will have no problem finding work so long as you fulfill the Taiwanese prescribed racial profile.
Don't be too concerned with the visa questions neither the local government nor the corrupt government ministries and departments are in any hurry to enforce the regulations.
I might recommend that you run you post through a spell checker to avoid the unwarranted criticism by some of the teachers on this board and others. If you have a problem with spelling and the reasons for this are usually caused by physical disabilities (childhood dyslexia, ADD etc.), try buying one of those little bilingual pocket dictionaries. It will help you with spelling as well as communicating in Chinese.
Good luck and please read this:
http://www.geocities.com/taiwanteacher2002/Success.html
A. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| Aristotle wrote: |
| I might recommend that you run you post through a spell checker to avoid the unwarranted criticism by some of the teachers on this board and others. If you have a problem with spelling and the reasons for this are usually caused by physical disabilities (childhood dyslexia, ADD etc.), try buying one of those little bilingual pocket dictionaries. |
Actually, the problems associated with spelling that you outlined above are not physical disabilities. While it is true that some may suffer from disabilities in this regard, I see some merit in the comments made by Taylor regarding the post made by this individual. I am not one for nitpicking, and I don�t believe that message boards are a formal forum within which the rules of grammar and punctuation need to be strictly adhered to. Having said that, it does seem pretty obvious that the spelling errors made by this individual were phonetically based, and seem to indicate to me that the poster is either not particularly competent in English, or more likely, not a native English speaker. The username �polska� has a Polish connotation to me, and it wouldn�t surprise me if the individual was born in Poland and grew up in the states. I am sure that polska can confirm this.
| polska wrote: |
| Im planing on taking the five day TESOL course in June and travelling to Taiwain to teach English. I dont have a degree, but I have six months experiance at a co-op, do you guys or girls think I will have difficulty finding employment in Taiwain ? |
The use of the word �planing� is a common misuse of the word �planning� as it is a misuse of the base word �plan� plus �ing.
The use of the word �travelling� is a common misspelling of the word traveling, that I am guilty of making myself on occasion, but is definitely an indication of the above problem with misuse of base words plus �ing.
The misspelling of the word �experiance� is clearly a phonetic mistake and not a typographical error.
The misspelling of �Taiwain� on two separate occasions pretty clearly indicates an unfamiliarity with this word, and not a simple typo. Phonetically, pronouncing the word the way that it is spelled clearly is incorrect, which seems to indicate that the person who wrote it either isn�t aware of how the name of Taiwan should be pronounced (unlikely), or that they are not aware of the �ai� sound as opposed to the �a� sound (more likely). The latter would be indicative to me of either a native English speaker with little education, or a non-native English speaker.
As I say, I do not want to dissect posts due to typos, laziness with punctuation etc. as this is an informal forum. I do think that the problems exhibited in the post are however indicative of the sort of teacher that is forced to teach illegally as they are unable to meet the governments guidelines.
The government requires teachers to be native English speakers with at least a Bachelors degree, if they want to receive a work permit to teach English. I don�t think that the government is asking too much in this regard, and it is posts such as the one made by �polska� that seem to convince me that the government is right on track by insisting that teachers have at least a minimum of qualifications to be considered a teacher here.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| You will have no problem finding work so long as you fulfill the Taiwanese prescribed racial profile. |
I don�t think that the question that needs to be answered is �Will this person be able to get teaching work here?� I think that the real question that needs to be answered is �Should this person get teaching work here?� |
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Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:23 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| �Should this person get teaching work here?� |
Contrary to what some may believe no one owns the English language. English teachers are in demand in Taiwan and anyone willing to teach English in Taiwan is doing the students and the island a great service. The benefits for English teachers are marginal when compared to other countries that actively encourage English learning. The demand for English teachers who can actually speak English being so great is a testament to the failure of the goverment of Taiwan to educate it's population.
The fact that this person may not be a native speaker is insignificant as Taiwan is not a native English speaking country nor do Taiwan's people have much exposure to different cultures.
This person obviously has the ability to speak and write English which is more than the vast majority of Taiwan government certified English teachers employed by the Ministry of Education (a.k.a. Ministry of Racial Purity).
Should this person come and teach in Taiwan? Absolutely and I will be more than willing to assist this person in finding a job.
I might suggest hat some people put aside insecurity and prejudices and except the fact that English is an international language not just the national language of the country from which they have expatriated themelves.
Good luck,
A. |
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Taylor
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 384
Location: Texas/Taiwan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:36 am Post subject: |
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Thank you, Clark. Your analysis and mine are exactly the same--but you took the initiative to explain what I felt was (or should be) common sense for English teachers. Your time is greatly appreciated!!!
As I recommended, this person should teach children around the age of 7 or younger. School owners invest millions of NT dollars to establish a professional language environment. Basic spelling skills are essential for most students in Taiwan. Moreover, there are thousands of Chinese people who have better writing skills than Polska.
My question for Aristotle and Hap Thornton: If you wanted to learn French (for example), wouldn't you hope that your teacher knows how to spell? How much would you be willing to pay a teacher who has poor spelling? Would you trust this teacher on other matters (i.e. grammar and pronunciation)? |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:17 am Post subject: |
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I'm glad to see there is some rationality on this board re: illegal teaching. It seems some would advocate anyone coming here, regardless of ability or qualifications.
Really, it is up to the individual to make up their own mind about whether or not it is worth while for them to come here. Illegal work and teachers are a reality here. So, yes, it is possible to get work here if you don't qualify for a work visa as an English teacher. I think it is irresponsible to recommend that one do so, however.
I had a friend here, for quite a while, who was an underqualified teacher. He was older and didn't see it as worthwhile for him to get a degree. He was neither successful nor happy. Sometimes he'd be doing well, but often he'd be scraping together a class here and a class there. And you want to see the kinds of crappy, unprofesssional buxibans that hire non-degree holders. If you are working illegally, it's a matter of when, not if, you will get screwed by an employer here. And when you get screwed, who can you turn to? You can't report it. You are an illegal alien here.
The hassle involved with the student extension visitor visa method makes it not worthwhile. My friend was always having to go the police station for his extensions. Occasionally, someone who wasn't "down" with the language school scam would give him a Chinese test and, upon discovering his Mandarin sucked, would threaten to deport him. Then he'd have to go back to the language "school," get them to phone whoever they bribed and straighten everything out. Then he'd have to go back again to the police station. On top of that there were the regular, and costly, visa trips. Further still, the extension stamps get harder and harder to explain away.
Hmmm.. Let's see. No degree= Few employers that will hire you; crappy ones that will. Costs, both financial and timewise, involved with the language school facade. No rights at all. Visa trips and the risk of getting caught and kicked out. Really worth it, huh? It's up to you, really. I'd say don't come if you don't qualify for an ARC. BTW, all of what I said is further amplified if you are not, as some suggested, a native speaker of English. Take care and make a responsible choice. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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Aristotle you are always complaining about 'the fake government of Taiwan' and how poorly treated and not respected foreign teachers are here in Taiwan. Judging from your most recent post in this thread, your answer to these problems is to encourage under qualified, non-English speaking 'teachers' to come to Taiwan and get work here just because they can. Why you would want to suggest this is beyond me, but does seem to be counterproductive to your cause. Surely you should be using your resources to help teachers who actually have a right to be here, rather than encouraging those that have no place as English teachers to hop on a plane and head right over.
I have nothing against Polska at all. If I am correct, and the person is of Polish origin, then maybe they should come and teach Polish in Taiwan. He or she may have other skills in other areas that they can secure work in. What is clear however, is that an unqualifiedm, non-native English speaker has no place teaching English here. Just because I speak some Chinese does not qualify me to teach the language, and if I were attempt to do so then I could be sure that I would be just passing my 'problems' onto unsuspecting students.
Personally, I find the practice of some schools to hire non-native English speaking teachers only to pass these teachers off as native speakers as somewhat repugnant. If they believe so much in the English language abilities of their non-native English speaking staff then they should stand by their decision to employ these individuals and post their real bios on the walls of the school so that parents can make an informed decision. Lieing about, or hiding, the nationalities, and true abilities of these teachers is downright dishonest, and any of these teachers who are involved in this 'con' should be ashamed of themselves. The schools and these teachers are taking advantage of unsuspecting individuals who are unable to determine the true English ability of the teachers.
The fact that you support the practice does not speak very highly of either you nor your 'secret society', and certainly undermines your claims of a 'fake government' in Taiwan. You sir, are the true fake!
| Aristotle wrote: |
| Contrary to what some may believe no one owns the English language. English teachers are in demand in Taiwan and anyone willing to teach English in Taiwan is doing the students and the island a great service. |
Anyone with even a thread of common decency and common sense would realize that students in Taiwan who are paying the big bucks for native English speaking teachers, want exactly what they are paying for. If the teacher is not in fact a native speaker of the language, then what is it that they have to offer that a local Chinese non-native speaker cannot offer?
I do not agree that teaching students poor English is doing them a favor. At least when they have a local teacher who may be teaching them English, they have the visual disclaimer that you get what you get. If the teacher is a local Chinese then students would no doubt expect that their English won't be perfect. Put a foreigner face in front of the class and you have to expect that the students will take what that teacher teaches as being fact. If that person is a non-native speaker then students will be placing their trust unknowingly.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| The fact that this person may not be a native speaker is insignificant as Taiwan is not a native English speaking country nor do Taiwan's people have much exposure to different cultures. |
I would think that this is exactly the reason that we DO need native English speaking teachers. To guide the students in conversational English.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| This person obviously has the ability to speak and write English which is more than the vast majority of Taiwan government certified English teachers employed by the Ministry of Education (a.k.a. Ministry of Racial Purity). |
Actually my experience with local teachers in government schools is that often their ability is quite reasonable, they are just too self concious about using English to actually be functional. The fact is that everyone knows this - including the students. The Chinese teachers are strong in their grammar, and are able to explain this all in Chinese. What good is a second language speaker who doesn't speak Chinese going to be?
| Aristotle wrote: |
| Should this person come and teach in Taiwan? Absolutely and I will be more than willing to assist this person in finding a job. |
And that job would be in one of the schools that Taoyuansteve outlined above.
Common sense dictates that no school is going to choose an unqualified, non-native English speaking foreign teacher to teach English here in Taiwan, over a native speaker, given a choice between the two.
Schools that employ non-native speakers illegally do so for a reason:
1. They are illegal schools or not authorized to employ foreigners. Either way the teacher can never be legal, regardless of what promises the school may make to the teacher.
2. The school pays less than the going rate - cheapskate schools will of course employ white faced teachers to teach regardless of nationality, if those teachers are willing to work for below market pay.
3. Schools with such bad reputations that no native speakers would choose to work there.
All of the above are obviously schools to be avoided. What kind of foreign teachers society are you running that you would knowingly introduce teachers to such potential problems? |
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Rice Paddy Daddy
Joined: 11 Jul 2004
Posts: 425
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
Really, it is up to the individual to make up their own mind about whether or not it is worth while for them to come here. Illegal work and teachers are a reality here. So, yes, it is possible to get work here if you don't qualify for a work visa as an English teacher. I think it is irresponsible to recommend that one do so, however.
I had a friend here, for quite a while, who was an underqualified teacher. He was older and didn't see it as worthwhile for him to get a degree. He was neither successful nor happy. Sometimes he'd be doing well, but often he'd be scraping together a class here and a class there. And you want to see the kinds of crappy, unprofesssional buxibans that hire non-degree holders. If you are working illegally, it's a matter of when, not if, you will get screwed by an employer here. And when you get screwed, who can you turn to? You can't report it. You are an illegal alien here. |
Disagree.
I've done this successfully. I'm not a trained teacher.
I have a friend who has been in Taiwan going on 6 years now. He doesn't have a teacher's licence or degree.
He has done well in Taiwan.
Steve, you don't like teaching illegally. That's fine. For you, there are many disadvantages.
But for others, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.
Foreign moral entrepreneurs try to change Tawain.
Taiwan will change when and if she decides to.
Until then, those holding a B.A. degree in Biology are no more qualified to teach EFL than those with no degree at all.
But that's just my view.
| Quote: |
| Common sense dictates that no school is going to choose an unqualified, non-native English speaking foreign teacher to teach English here in Taiwan, over a native speaker, given a choice between the two. |
These comments do not reflect my experience living and teaching in Tawain.
Tell that to my friend form Canada who was teaching in a buxiban with his Mom and a few other teachers for the last 2 years.
The owner didn't renew their contracts this past year.
He hired Philippinos to teach English at reduced wages.
You're out to lunch - and common sense is cultural. Your Taiwan isn't the one I'm experiencing. |
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Taylor
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 384
Location: Texas/Taiwan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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Rice Paddy Daddy,
If your friend, his Mom and the other teachers are hard-working, qualified individuals with experience, then they should have no trouble finding teaching jobs elsewhere. This sounds like a very isolated incident to me.
Nevertheless, as Aristotle pointed out, "no one owns the English language." You seem to agree with Aristotle that ANYONE can be a qualified teacher, but it appears that you hold a double-standard against the Philipinos getting jobs.
Can you agree with Aristotle on this point as well? Aristotle wrote: "The fact that this person may not be a native speaker is insignificant as Taiwan is not a native English speaking country."
Strange bedfellows, indeed.
Taylor |
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