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[hubei_canuk]

" And I haven't heard anyone use the expression "commie" for years. I teach some senior party members,and they're as communist as Alan Greenspan. Communism is an economic system,not a political one,and China gave up the pretence years ago." - Minhang Oz
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I think this deserves it's own thread.
Commie, commie, where's the commie? Old China Hands and Newcomers alike look about and say there's no commies here. It's just business!
So what say you all?
Where did the commies go? Did Mao take them all to The Big Workers Paradise in the Sky?
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I don't think so. And i never stop to use the word "commies" to try to break through the illusion to break through that wall of seeing-nothing that people here might keep in mind they are living in a Dictatorship, A Totalitarian State, a repressive and nasty system that daily wears down it's citizens crippling their mental function.
.......
Allow me to start with an anecdote;
(stop groaning)
In november 1988. i sat in Tiantan Park, Beijing listening to the local musicians. Along came a foreign camera crew. They set up the camera and interviewed an old man who spoke fairly decent English. They asked him what he thought of the New China and the New Changes.
He stunned them. He said China was still the same. "The more things change the more they stay the same". He said there was no New China.
The camera crew didn't like that at all. It wasn't their "copy", they went looking elsewhere.
And the next June the government massacred Beijingers as well as protesters in Tiananmen Square (for the second time in a decade), closed their doors and declared that "nothing had happened". They burned the students bodies in the square, and secretly disposed of them. The parents seeking their children, never found out for sure what happened to them and didn't dare ask the government. However many notices seeking the "lost" went up around Beijing.
Then a year or two later many hundred or a thousands of TIMES more died in the Xinjiang uprising.
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So those are significant events, but how about daily life?
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For instance, does everybody here know that all teachers report back to school 2 weeks early from the summer vacatiion for "political education"?
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And then again, daily lives of which classes of people and which locality?
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So are the commies really only Uncle Henry and Aunt Jane studying English and getting down to business or is there something here that maybe some of us are missing?
Do they take chinese people who talk like me to the funny farm or to the Gulag?
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Well, i'll be back later. I have to go find a fine Chianti to go with my kidneys.

[Minhang Oz]

Congratulations HC on a much better crafted and more readable posting.Of course I disagree, but that's why I wanted you back. You are describing totalitarianism,pure and simple. Communism was an economic theory, born during the misery and exploitation of 19th century Europe,given a trial run,and found not to be any match for the realities of human ambition. I'm sure you've read "Animal Farm". I don't have,and I don't think any poster here has,any rosy illusions about the present government's willingness to tolerate dissent. But because they're called the CCP doesn't mean they are communist. The present government of Australia is the Liberal Party, and a less liberal,more myopic collection of fossils would be hard to find anywhere.England has the Labour Party,whose leader has never had a socialist thought in his life. You have a remarkable memory,as illustrated by your anecdote. Fortunately,the old man spoke in cliches,which are easy to remember.So,when you say "commie",if you actually mean "totalitarian",or "undemocratic" we could have some common ground.It may just be semantics to you,but it's English to me.

[MW]

I CONCUR - WELL DONE MATE!

Do not agree with hardly anything you say but defend your right to say it!

[Dragon]

Dear Comrade,
Yes, we must uphold the individuals right to express themselves. You are exactly right. Keep positing your positions.
DRAGON

[chinasyndrome]

[quote="Minhang Oz"]

[Roger]

Communism is a religion, not a form of government! It still is widely believed in here in China, to be sure, and I know that workers in many state-owned enterprises still have to undergo weekly political lessons. Witnessed it myself in Xinjiang - bank "open" but teller not available because sitting with a tea mug in the meeting-room with her colleagues and a man from the local CP office for two hours. Must change my foreign currency next day!

As a religion, it is neither good nor bad. It is a system of beliefs and values, and these can be arbitrarily exchanged for new ones. Don't believe me?
My partner has taken "Karl Marx Economics" at a state-run training centre recently. What did she learn there?
"Karl Marx invented the stock exchange. All people can be rich if they invest their savings in shares..."

I am not so sure if China would be a better place to live in if it was NOT socialist or communist! It's the people that make a country what it is, not the system.
Communism does no harm. It's that it gives rulers pseudo-legitimate powers that they can use against anyone, especially against their own people. But we should also acknowledge that the CP has worked as much in the interest of the nation at large as it has against it.

[Minhang Oz]

MW Your exquisite double negative,which you qualify as well,and your unwillingness to say who you're talking to are a worry,even though I know this is your idea of a bit of a laugh. If I thought you were serious about any of the new topics you've posted I'd have a look at some. At the moment watching CCTV 10 seems far more appealing.

[chastenosferatu]

Roger has hit it right on the head, when my partner asked her two girls she tutors what religion they were their response was "We are Mao, Lenin, and Marx". It is a religion to the common person and an excuse to legitimacy for the ruling class of this place. And it is the people who make China what it is, hence the fact the system with its graft and corruption hasn't changed for 5000 years.

[hubei_canuk]

com�mie also Com�mie
n. Informal
A Communist. - dictionary
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"It may just be semantics to you,but it's English to me."
- Minhang oz
--------------------------------------------------------
Commies don't speak your english. A commie is a communist.
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The word commie does bring up reminders of unpleasantness and evil because of it's historical usage.
That's what many people want to avoid and forget about.
That's why i use it.

[Minhang Oz]

Yes HC,I know all that,studied Modern World History,taught it for many years etc. Look up any dictionary,see "Communism"...do ANY of the definitions describe China now? Authoritarian, Totalitarian,yes of course.But look at the economic goals of a "commie" government. State controlled? SOE's are hanging on by a thread. Banks,insurance,telecommunications will follow. Dictatorship of the proletariate? As if! I'm getting bored with this. It's a religion? A very loose application of the word;very wrong actually. Is capitalism a religion? How about free trade? Back to CCTV 10,Army News coming up.

[Egas]

The reason Mao's pic still hangs up there in Tiannamen is because he is the Christ of China - in an officially atheist state, the cult of the leader becomes supreme. But that is a pretty obvious joke if you have ever read The Private Life of Chairman Mao, written by his doc. Some God. The difference betwen the real Mao and the cult of Mao is so huge that it is mindboggling. But the same may well be true of Western demi-Gods - look at JFK, for example. It may even be true of our spiritual leaders, like Christ or Moses, for all we know of those long-dead souls.

I can't agree with chastenosferatu (change your name for God's sake!) that the system hasn't changed, if you were speaking more broadly than the corruption issue. Sure, everything is corrupt to the hilt here, but we wouldn't be here if things weren't changing. The people are waking up, slowly, although most still live in ignorance outside of the cities as far as I can see. Go to North Korea. Then you will see what China used to be like.

And before we start calling anyone a "Commie" we should take a good long look at the so-called capitalistic (mostly) "democratic" nations of the world. It wasn't the commies who raped the third world and bled it into impoverished anonymity. It isn't the commies who are running sex tours to Thailand (well, maybe a few). It wasn't the commies who sang "Achey Breaky Heart." It wasn't the commies that elected John Howard, and George Bush.

I don't think such labels as "Commie"serve much purpose. After all, who here would be happy to be called a capitalist? But many in China would call you just that, and a hell of a lot in North Korea.

[noyb]

MO:

[David Bowles]

The 'dictatorship of the proletariat' thing is pretty flexible, so they can still claim to be Communist...there's one party, and since that speaks for the workers and peasants there's no need for any other...
I tend to picture the corridors of Chinese government as full of old men looking depressed and demanding to know why they can see McDonald's from their offices, which they never leave.
I always thought the funny thing about China (in so far as tragic histories can be funny...) was that the Communists, supposedly 'internationalist' if Marxism means anything at all, fought a bitter civil war with the Nationalists and then set up the most nationalist country I've ever been to.

[sojourner]

Chinasyndrone,

Greetings !

You mentioned that J.Howard is a member of the Party that introduced the White Aust Policy,etc.Accuse me of nitpicking,but the legislation behind the aforementioned Policy was introduced very soon after Federation (1901).Howard's Party was not in existence then - the Govt,soon after Federation was the Protectionist party (or was it the Free Trade Party ? ) - both,anyway, contained elements of classical conservative and liberal thought,just as Howard's Party does.But the modern Liberal party was not founded until 1944 !

BTW,the strongest supporter of the White Australia Party during the first six decades of the 20th Century was not the "tory party"(of whatever name),but rather the Australian Labor Party,the progressive party of the underdog,of "democratic socialism" !

Regards,

Peter

[chinasyndrome]

Hi Peter,

I don't think you're nitpicking at all, just clarifying a point, if I understand you correctly (modern vs precursor). Good call, and thanks for making it.

Not too sure about Labor being the strongest supporter, though. As I understand it, there were definite elements of all parties and parts of society that supported it (and perhaps still do), but were they (Labor) the strongest supporters? I'll hunt up some info on the net if I can - I've got books back home on it but nothing here that I can reach for.

If you've got something and you're interested in sharing it, please PM me (or post if you think others would be interested too). I wasn't meaning to be intentionally misleading and I would like to be corrected if I got it wrong. Obviously, I've got no love for Mr Howard and the liberals but making them sound worse than I think they are wasn't my intention.

Thanks again, Peter.

Cheers,

Les