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MW
Joined: 03 Apr 2003
Posts: 115
Location: China
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 Posted: Sun May 04, 2003 10:45 pm Post subject: WE TEACH ENGLISH - THEY LEARN CHINGLISH! |
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ASSUMPTION: Chinglish is unacceptable or bad language
The purpose of all language is effective communication.
�Pidgin� English is understood amongst the native Hawaiian people and it also enables them to effectively communicate with the English-speaking foreigners who are occupying their homeland.
�Singlish� is an effective form of English communication amongst the people of Singapore and their English speaking world trading partners, business associates and tourists.
In fact, almost every nation that has adopted English as a second language has developed a form of English that can be readily used by the lowest common denominator within its own people�s abilities to communicate and to still have effective communications with the native English speaker.
There may be some purists who look down upon �Chinglish� or anything less than �perfect English� but of course their definition of what perfect English is will also depend upon which of the 7 English forms they consider to be their native form or �pure English.�
China is a developing Nation and is well within its rights to develop a form of English that best suits its general population�s need to communicate with each other as well as native English speakers, while insisting on a more refined English (Proper or Standard English, Jiang Yajun, (1995) only for its official translators and some groups of professionals such as lawyers, accountants, scientists, medical doctors, etc. is only required by certain professional groups in China (Shanghai Star 10-24-02,).
Chinglish is not a bad thing! In point of fact, it is inevitable (Jiang Yajun, (1995)
Certain Municipal Governments require all of their civil servants to have a minimum of 1,000 English words in their vocabulary (China Daily, (10-05-02) This official policy forces Chinese speakers of Mandarin to sprinkle a few English words in to give a little English flavor to their Mandarin. This is nothing less than an officially sanctioned and promulgated form of Chinglish. |
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Dragon
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 12:58 am Post subject: |
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Dear Comrade,
I will try not to teach chinglish. Thank you for the relevant postings. I am falling short of my duties to not teach chinglish. Thanks for all that you do. Please where do you teach.
Your faithful follower
DRAGON  |
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MW
Joined: 03 Apr 2003
Posts: 115
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 1:03 am Post subject: |
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COMRADE DRAGON -
I do not teach ... I am a new breed of facilitator who empowers his students to be responsible for their own learning and to think outside the box.
Please do not report me for these revolutionary ideas and actions.
Regards,
COMRADE MW |
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Dragon
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 1:14 am Post subject: |
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Dear Comrade,
I would never reprot you. Keep informing us and update us on your facilitation approach to the knowledge of learning English. Yours is a sacred duty to the chinese people and to us as lowly teachers. We salute you
Dragon |
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noyb
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
ASSUMPTION: Chinglish is unacceptable or bad language
The purpose of all language is effective communication.
In fact, almost every nation that has adopted English as a second language has developed a form of English that can be readily used by the lowest common denominator within its own people�s abilities to communicate and to still have effective communications with the native English speaker. |
This is an ESL teachers forum. To this end, when speaking of English, it is fair to imagine that the issue is not only communication, but also teaching how to communicate in a precise and structured manner. Let's join, for a moment, the laws of mathematics and the law of (you may take out your dictionary now)entropy. If, say, correct English is termed "n" and any first generation deviation is termed "n1", by the time you have taught your students "n1" and it filters down to the teachers who result from being taught at, say, the tenth generation, you will have an "n12" form of a language.
At that point, coming to China and speaking English (or even teaching) with Chinese people will evolve from being an interesting experience to a hilarious one, at best.
Since you can speak Chinglish almost perfectly, why would China go to such great effort and expense to bring in tens of thousands of native English teachers to not only teach the masses but also the Chinglish teachers? I mean, they earn much, much more than you do and are treated with much more respect and dignity, yet you are China's holy grail?
These are hypothetical questions which any native speaker should see as not needing answers. You can also refrain and save bandwidth and cut down the noise (i.e. factor of mindless drivel vs. available space).
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| There may be some purists who look down upon �Chinglish� or anything less than �perfect English� but of course their definition of what perfect English is will also depend upon which of the 7 English forms they consider to be their native form or �pure English.� |
From a technical or even practical stand, this is nonsense. You completely misunderstand the nature of a language. Of course, coming from a native speaker of a language that is held to have but one "pure & unadultered" form, this mistake is understandable. Let's not even get started about your idea of "7 English forms."
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| China is a developing Nation and is well within its rights to develop a form of English that best suits its general population�s need to communicate with each other as well as native English speakers, ... |
Chinese people communicate with each other in English? In any event, I don't think China is "developing" its own form of English. I think this form of English is thrust upon China rather than developed by China.
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| Certain Municipal Governments require all of their civil servants to have a minimum of 1,000 English words in their vocabulary (China Daily, (10-05-02). |
A 1,000 word vocabulary? When placing a numerical value such as this on vocabulary, it shows you have no concept whatsoever on vocabulary acquisition, storage or use. By the way, do these same municipal governments that require a 1,000 word vocabulary also require proficiency in rules of capitalization?
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| �Pidgin� English ... also enables them to effectively communicate with the English-speaking foreigners who are occupying their homeland. |
Much the same as the Taiwanese variant of "standard" Chinese allows them to communicate with those who are occupying their mainland??
Last edited by noyb on Mon May 05, 2003 7:50 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Dragon
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 2:32 am Post subject: |
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Dear Comrade,
They are jealous of your insighfulness in your facilitation of the english language. Work hard for mother china and watch out for the naive esl industry teachers.
DRAGON |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 5:37 am Post subject: |
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MW,
I don't think I can agree with you here!
The Chinglish that's torturing us every day is in no way comparable to pidgin, Singlish or any other adulterated form of speech!
It is not a mixture of English and Chinese at all.
Rather it is English vocabulary and Chinese syntax minus English grammar.
Its self-perpetuation owes to the group you criticised in a different thread - Chinese English teachers with their limited understanding of English.
Since CHinese don't speak English with each other they don't even know how bad their Chinglish is!
One of my Chinglish therapies consists in asking Chinese students to work out for me what some Chinglish texts actually purport to tell me. |
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Dragon
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Comrade MW,
I cannot believe that someone disagrees with you. You must attack and set them straight. Tell them about your FACILITATION METHOD and then we will all be better off. 1978 was a long time ago, 25 years, you have seen many things change in china. I believe that you are probably responsible for the great things happening in China today. Comrade, I hope you never leave here. When can we meet as it would be an honor sir or madam.
DRAGON |
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dan
Joined: 20 Mar 2003
Posts: 247
Location: shanghai
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 1:50 pm Post subject: Chinglish |
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| not only should we accept chinglish and other L2 dialects, we should come see them as contributing to and enriching the English language. the best thing about english is its flexibility and ever-changing quality. the more we maintain negative attitudes about chinglish, spanglish, inglish, etc. the less likely people who speak these english dialects will accept them themselves and, conversely, the more we dscourage these dialects the more hegemic and 'undemocratic' we become. languages the world over are tied to ideas of power, status and agenda. english still has a bad reputation from colonial times; however, we are now in a position to spin past mistakes into future gains by promoting english growth and CHANGE. i have german friend who speaks english very well (he has an MA from u of wisconsin in english) but still often second guesses himself because, at times, people do not consider his imput/contributions as legitimate, or as legitimate as those made by his native-speaking counterparts despite the fact that, in my estimation, his unique deployments of english are more rich and flavorful that those of the purists he has to deal with. |
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Billy
Joined: 24 Feb 2003
Posts: 10
Location: Guangzhou, China
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| ... the more we maintain negative attitudes about chinglish, spanglish, inglish, etc. the less likely people who speak these english dialects will accept them themselves and, conversely, the more we dscourage these dialects the more hegemic and 'undemocratic' we become. |
Where will these fluent speakers of, say, Spanglish work? Will they reach the boardrooms of Fortune 500 companies or enjoy a rich and satisfying life as, say, a migrant farmhand? |
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wix
Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 250
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| MW wrote: |
| China is a developing Nation and is well within its rights to develop a form of English that best suits its general population’s need to communicate with each other as well as native English speakers |
Chinese people don't need English or Chinglish to communicate with each other. Mandarin or putonghua serves that purpose. English is only necessary in China for international communications (i.e. with foreigners in China or abroad).
Chinese people would do better to learn a standard (whatever that is) form of English that can be understood everywhere. There is no point learning Chinglish which is unintelligible. Of course how to achieve this is another matter. Although there will be no shortage of English teaching jobs in China for the next few decades. |
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chinasyndrome
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 673
Location: In the clutches of the Red Dragon. Erm...China
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Billy"]
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| Where will these fluent speakers of, say, Spanglish work? Will they reach the boardrooms of Fortune 500 companies or enjoy a rich and satisfying life as, say, a migrant farmhand? |
Well said, Billy. |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| English is only important when dealing with foreigners..and in getting into graduate school |
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dan
Joined: 20 Mar 2003
Posts: 247
Location: shanghai
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 6:21 pm Post subject: working with spanglish |
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| i understand your very practical concern about where these people will work, but it is, after all, an attitudinal issue. if a company will not hire a someone who speaks an English dialect different from their own (an intelligible one - i not talking about mutually exclusive ones) then the problem is with the person doing the hiring. it seems to me that this is a form of discrimination, and an unnecessary one at that. of course, if the communication gap is too big to work with, then by all means, don't hire the person. i guess im curious where you draw the line. for me, its one based on communication. anything beyond that is, in my mind, wrong. my English isnt perfect and yet i teach it at an American university. surface level issues that do not hinder communication, ideas, intention, originality and things like that merit very little attention for me. |
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dan
Joined: 20 Mar 2003
Posts: 247
Location: shanghai
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 6:28 pm Post subject: post script |
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| also: do all people who study english intend on, as you say, "reaching the boardrooms of fortune 500 companies"? probably not. if that were the case, we'd all be out of jobs. furthermore, there are other factors that would prohibit a person from obtaining these jobs than their facility, flair and savvy with the english language. conversely, people can achieve without a firm grasp of english - one neednt look beyond the white house for substantiating these claims. |
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