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woman
Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 7
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 Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:27 am Post subject: black listed |
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My current contract with my school states that I must give 60 days notice should I want too leave my job. Otherwise they will inform the authorities and take legal action.
Theres a possibility that I may leave my school, however I am a little concern about being black listed and legal action.
There is a chance of another job with a different school. I have no problem with leaving the country and then coming back again.
Any advice on my situation would be great. Also how long does it take for a school too cancel an ARC so your able too leave the country. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:45 am Post subject: |
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You needn't have your ARC cancelled by your school to leave the country. You can do so at any time.
I wouldn't worry about blacklists and legal action too much.
Talk to the school you want to work for. They can explain the procedure for changing jobs. If done right, you won't have to leave the country. |
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woman
Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| So what happens when a person just leaves in regards too their ARC? |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| You're better to talk with the school who wants to employ you about how to change jobs. Effectively, they can take over sponsorship of your work visa and you can switch jobs. There's an article on this on www.tealit.com |
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woman
Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:55 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks. I have already read that, hence why I am worried about the fact that I would have too work the notice period before I could leave. Its not a bad school that I work for, but recently a situation has arisen that is just making me unhappy within my environment. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:04 am Post subject: |
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The blacklisting of teacher isn't likely to be as relevant as it used to be now that the CLA has taken over work permit issuance from the MOE.
Having said that, you would be wise to wait out the notice period if you have further aspirations here in Taiwan. My views are overall pretty positive about Taiwan, but I will be the first to concede that pissing off the wrong people would not be in your best interests. If you do as you are required to do under your contract, and your school attempts a malicious blacklisting then you have some grounds for appeal. If you just up and leave then you will have no defence should the school attempt to spread the word about you.
You can check out if you have been blacklisted by a school on this site.
Your ARC is pretty much your property and as such you take it with you when you leave and start a new job. The ARC is only valid however, as long as your work permit and resident visa are valid. Your old school is obliged by law to notify the CLA immediately should you leave their employ, and you can expect that your work permit would be cancelled within about 7-10 days of the CLA receiving this notification from a school. Your resident visa and ARC would then also be cancelled as the word was passed down. Therefore you would best leave the country within 10 days of leaving your current employer.
It is possible to have a second employer added to your ARC now, and this would enable you to drop your first employer but retain your ARC and residency status. To do this your second employer must meet the requirements of the CLA of being able to apply for a work permit. Your second employer then effectively becomes the sponsor of your visa. |
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phil82
Joined: 25 Apr 2003
Posts: 37
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:05 am Post subject: |
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Legally you need to work notice of either 1 or 2 weeks (it's on tealit, i just can't remember).
As far as your contract is concerned, it isn't legally binding so don't worry if it says 60 days. Even though you signed it they can't hold you to that. |
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woman
Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks all for advice..Well when I told them that I wanted too quit it was a week ago, and I said I would work until the end of the month.
Theres a good possibility that there is another job with another school. I read the thing about obtaining a second ARC whilst already having one. I need too dicuss with the other school tomorrow. I don't feel to bad about leaving my currently school. The cram school was alright but the kindergarden really is frustating experience, and its starting too make me feel ill. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| woman wrote: |
Thanks all for advice..Well when I told them that I wanted too quit it was a week ago, and I said I would work until the end of the month.
Theres a good possibility that there is another job with another school. I read the thing about obtaining a second ARC whilst already having one. I need too dicuss with the other school tomorrow. I don't feel to bad about leaving my currently school. The cram school was alright but the kindergarden really is frustating experience, and its starting too make me feel ill. |
Woman please don't take this the wrong way, but you are using the words 'to' and 'too' incorrectly. I didn't say anything about the problem in your first couple of posts as I assumed that it was just an oversight on your behalf.
Your most recent post though shows a surprising pattern in as much as it contained both usages, however you got them all mixed up and used each one incorrectly. You might want to take some more care in this area, particularly if you are going to be teaching English. It could be embarrassing for you to make this kind of mistake in class; and it wouldn't be good for the students if they were pick up on your problem.
Anyway, take my post as you will, but it is not meant to be offensive. |
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woman
Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| I won't I am very stressed at the moment and therefore not really thinking about my English usage. |
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Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2004 7:30 am Post subject: |
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Black listing anyone in regards to ARC re-application or transfer is now cost prohibitive for schools. The amount of quanxi and money required makes it almost impossible. The Ministry of Education (a.k.a. Taiwan Ministry of Racial Purity) has been stripped of it's authority to authorize work permits and ARC's for foreign teachers. The blatant corruption and institutionalized bribe taking was becoming an embarrassment to a new government promising reform . Blacklisting was a huge source of illegal revenue for Taiwan Ministry of Racial Purity (MOE) officials. Now those same Taiwan government officials must find new sources of revenue (ban English altogether).
All foreign teachers ARC's are now effectively approved by the Council of Labor Affairs in Taipei. One of the biggest reasons that none of the local officials know how to get your ARC approved, they have no say in the process. This responsibility will eventually be delegated to local Labor Affairs Officials in the near future if it has not been already.
The CLA has much more oversight and professionalism than the Taiwan Ministry of Racial Purity (MOE). They do not blacklist teachers as there are no regulations that permits them to do that.
The Taiwan Ministry of Racial Purity (MOE) has taken other steps to rectify their loss of face and bribes. They have publically listed all the foreign teachers with an ARC on a public data base. If you want your info taken off you must pay a bribe to the MOE same as the schools do.
Many of the more popular teaching English or living in Taiwan websites have begun to offer databases of previous employers comments about teachers who have listed their resumes or info on those sites.
As you will notice one of our more regular, long winded posters here in the Taiwan section have a link to one such site listed under his newest avatar (Chevy Chase).
Good luck,
A. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 2:01 am Post subject: |
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Wow. Aristotle certainly has a knack for making simple concepts quite convoluted and cumbersome.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| The Ministry of Education (a.k.a. Taiwan Ministry of Racial Purity) has been stripped of it's authority to authorize work permits and ARC's for foreign teachers. The blatant corruption and institutionalized bribe taking was becoming an embarrassment to a new government promising reform . |
Well that�s one way of summing up the situation I guess. The wrong way.
The facts are that the Council of Labor (CLA) has always been the authority that issued work permits for foreign workers in Taiwan. This has not changed. In the past the CLA were responsible for the application and approval process for some types of foreign workers (blue collar workers), but enabled various other departments handle the application process for other workers (including foreign teachers). At all times though, the CLA was solely responsible for the approval and issuance of work permits for all classes of foreign worker.
Recently the CLA has centralized all of this, such that now only one department deals with the process from woe to go. This seemed like a progressive move, and the results have spoken for themselves so far:
1. Faster processing times down from two to three weeks to just 7-10 days.
2. More stringent and reasonable enforcement as far as refusing applications that contain degrees from unapproved institutions and fake degrees.
3. A one stop center for information enquiries.
Still not perfect, and there is still a long way to go, but improving all the time. It is these sorts of advances that have made Aristotle and his secret society even more redundant. There is simply no longer any need for the cloak and dagger illegal approach anymore, and this is evidenced by the lack of any useful information in any of Aristotle�s cut and paste replies to each and every thread on this forum.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| Black listing anyone in regards to ARC re-application or transfer is now cost prohibitive for schools. The amount of quanxi and money required makes it almost impossible. |
Really?! And what basis do you have for making this statement. Gut feelings that stem from the hatred you have exhibited in your posts for the people and the government of Taiwan.
To the best of my knowledge there is no cost in adding a teachers name to a �Teacher Blacklist� and in my opinion this is where the problem lies. If it were, as Aristotle suggests, a costly exercise to blacklist a teacher then you could be sure that any frivolous black listings would almost disappear.
As I have said before, teacher blacklisting is almost a thing of the past. You can still be black listed visa wise for overstaying, being here on a visa inappropriate for it�s usage, or being caught working illegally etc. (all things that Aristotle still encourages), but there is little interest in blacklisting of teachers. Therefore anyone following Aristotles advice is far more likely to find themself on a blacklist of some sort, than those who choose to do things above board. Most of the information on most teacher blacklists is quite out of date now anyway.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| Blacklisting was a huge source of illegal revenue for Taiwan Ministry of Racial Purity (MOE) officials. Now those same Taiwan government officials must find new sources of revenue (ban English altogether). |
How does banning English line the pockets of MOE officials? Surely having a hand in the pie would be more profitable than throwing the pie away.
The above comment is not borne out by the MOE�s efforts in regards to English instruction. The MOE is pro-English and takes every opportunity to increase English opportunities such as raising the word lists for students, and lowering the age for English language instruction for elementary aged students. How exactly have they been attempting to ban English?
| Aristotle wrote: |
| The CLA has much more oversight and professionalism than the Taiwan Ministry of Racial Purity (MOE). They do not blacklist teachers as there are no regulations that permits them to do that. |
I agree that they are more professional. I disagree that they don�t have the capacity to blacklist teachers though. They most certainly do have the capacity to blacklist teachers, but they are more likely to do so internally without any input from schools or other sources of information. The CLA maintains lists of applicants that have been refused work permits on grounds such as fake documents etc. These teachers are effectively blacklisted from working as teachers in Taiwan � they may just not be aware of this fact.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| The Taiwan Ministry of Racial Purity (MOE) has taken other steps to rectify their loss of face and bribes. They have publically listed all the foreign teachers with an ARC on a public data base. If you want your info taken off you must pay a bribe to the MOE same as the schools do. |
The list that Aristotle is referring to is not new, and it appears that he just didn�t know about it until recently.
I disagree with the MOE�s decision to make such information public. There is nothing there of any real interest to anyone, but I still object to the fact that names are provided to anyone who bothers to take a look. The information should be available in my opinion, but only to registered users that have a reason to access such information such as other government departments or even licensed schools that are registered to employ foreign teachers. Anybody else who wants access should have to apply for and receive approval.
I have never heard of anyone paying money to have their name removed. The list only states your name, nationality, contract expiry, and employer�s name. I would think one would have to be particularly paranoid to think that they should pay any amount of money to get their name off the list. Then again maybe Aristotle has personal experience in this regard, after all he fits the profile!
| Aristotle wrote: |
Many of the more popular teaching English or living in Taiwan websites have begun to offer databases of previous employers comments about teachers who have listed their resumes or info on those sites.
As you will notice one of our more regular, long winded posters here in the Taiwan section have a link to one such site listed under his newest avatar (Chevy Chase). |
I assume that this refers to my signature. I link to that site as I have found it to be a wealth of information, and best of all up to date.
On the site that he is referring to there is no information about teachers posted by employers. Perhaps Aristotle is referring to a site other than the one that I am thinking.
Care to clarify by way of a link Aristotle? |
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Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| The facts are that the Council of Labor (CLA) has always been the authority that issued work permits for foreign workers in Taiwan. |
In all the years the CLA has existed only recently has it taken an active role in the Work permit / ARC application process. Prior to the recent changes the CLA was nothing more than rubber stamp. In most cases the documents were never even opened by the CLA . Delegated with the responsibility of having the final say in nearly all matters involving work permits and ARC's the CLA has done an awful job. To this date the amount of errors in documents approve by the CLA make it difficult to ascertain who the documents are referring to. Wrong names, ID numbers, addresses, nationalities...
As far as teaching illegally, the conflicting regulations by the various ministries and departments make a majority of foreigners employed on Taiwan illegal in some form or another. A teacher's credentials or intentions have very little to do with whether or not that teacher is working illegally. In nearly all cases of foreign teachers being deported for illegally working in Taiwan, they had a valid ARC and it was their employers deception and ignorance that allowed it to happen. Teachers that are knowingly and intentionally working illegally are much more aware of their situation and can take precautions to ensure they will not be harassed. The vast majority of the relatively small number of teachers who have been deported for working illegally have had a valid ARC from their employer. An employer who didn't pay the bribes required for anyone to do business on Taiwan.
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How does banning English line the pockets of MOE officials? Surely having a hand in the pie would be more profitable than throwing the pie away.
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I my opinion laws and regulations of this type are written with the express purpose of extorting bribes for government officials.
Good luck,
A. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Aristotle wrote: |
| In all the years the CLA has existed only recently has it taken an active role in the Work permit / ARC application process. |
As I stated in my earlier post, the CLA has always been involved with the complete process for some foreign workers such as blue collar workers. Only recently have they taken over control of the whole process as it pertains to foreign teachers. The CLA has always been the organization with the ultimate decision making power as far as ALL work permits for foreigners working in Taiwan. As such I disagree that they were 'nothing more than a rubber stamp'. They were, and still are, the ones who decide whether you are allowed to work here or not. If anything, the MOE were the rubber stampers, as they simply processed paperwork up to a certain point before passing it on to the decision makers.
The fact that the paperwork is now centralized through the actual decision making department is a good thing!
| Aristotle wrote: |
| Prior to the recent changes the CLA was nothing more than rubber stamp. In most cases the documents were never even opened by the CLA . |
If they didn't open the documents then how did they stamp them?!!
| Aristotle wrote: |
| Delegated with the responsibility of having the final say in nearly all matters involving work permits and ARC's the CLA has done an awful job. To this date the amount of errors in documents approve by the CLA make it difficult to ascertain who the documents are referring to. Wrong names, ID numbers, addresses, nationalities... |
This is not something that has just been delegated to the CLA. They have always been the decision making body by law. The only change is that they have now cut out the middle man (the MOE) and we can now deal direct.
How exactly does this indicate that they have done a bad job?
| Aristotle wrote: |
| As far as teaching illegally, the conflicting regulations by the various ministries and departments make a majority of foreigners employed on Taiwan illegal in some form or another. |
How so?
To the best of my knowledge, most, if not all, of the foreign teachers that I know working here, are working here legally.
How exactly is it that teachers working legal jobs with an ARC are actually working illegally?
| Aristotle wrote: |
| In nearly all cases of foreign teachers being deported for illegally working in Taiwan, they had a valid ARC and it was their employers deception and ignorance that allowed it to happen. |
| Aristotle wrote: |
| The vast majority of the relatively small number of teachers who have been deported for working illegally have had a valid ARC from their employer. |
This is total nonsense and something that you have never supported in all of the years that you have been saying it.
Have a look over at forumosa and you will see a couple of threads where this very question has been asked on more than one occasion. On each occasion the answer has been a definite 'NO' as far as the question 'Have ARC holding foreigners ever been deported for working illegally?'
Many of the old timers over at forumosa do know of people that have been deported, but each and every person that was deported had either overstayed their visa or was working without an ARC.
I don't doubt that there has been the odd individual that was deported for working illegally even though they had an ARC, but they are definitely in the minority. By far the majority of teachers who get deported are the ones that are teaching without a visa and without an ARC.
This was borne out in the recent raids on kindergartens that did see some teachers deported. Aristotle reported on another fourm at the time that he had confirmed that several ARC holding foreigners from Gloria Schools were deported. Not long after that one of the teachers posted that none of them had been deported but that each had been asked to sign a letter of apology, and all had been required to find legal work elsewhere. None of those individuals were deported.
The teachers deported during the sweep were the ones working without ARC's (mostly unqualified or non-native English speaking teachers), and students teaching illegally on student visas. Both groups do not have ARC's.
If you are going to suggest otherwise Aristotle then I suggest that you back up your claims.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| I my opinion |
That's what it comes down to doesn't it Aristotle. In your personal opinion. There is nothing wrong with personal opinions and they are equally valid.
My problem with you is that you present information as if it is backed up by the facts when it isn't. It is just the opinion of an illegal teacher in Taiwan, who advocates living and working illegally in Taiwan, by way of his illegal underground secret society. |
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Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
I don't doubt that there has been the odd individual that was deported for working illegally even though they had an ARC, but they are definitely in the minority. By far the majority of teachers who get deported are the ones that are teaching without a visa and without an ARC.
This was borne out in the recent raids on kindergartens that did see some teachers deported. Aristotle reported on another fourm at the time that he had confirmed that several ARC holding foreigners from Gloria Schools were deported. Not long after that one of the teachers posted that none of them had been deported but that each had been asked to sign a letter of apology, and all had been required to find legal work elsewhere. None of those individuals were deported. |
Do you mean they had an ARC for the kindy at which they were working illegally, or they had an ARC for some other school, and they were also working at the kindy? |
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