Job Discussion Forums

whio · Joined: 18 Oct 2004 Posts: 12 Location: lost

I'm coming to China in a little over a month

The school I'm going to seems as safe as I'll get in China

And I trust the New Zealand-based agency that I'm going through

However, today I emailed the agency to ask when a finalised contract was likely to be sent out for me to look at/sign...

They told me that contracts are signed at the school. So I won't be seeing the contract until I arrive there.

Is that common/standard practice?

The agency has shown me copies of past contracts which seem fine, but there's not guarantee that my contract will be the same.

Should I be worried?

limits601 · Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:46 am Post subject:

They should provide you with a .doc format copy of the contract.

What happened to me was the agency (that i trusted at the time) agreed to a bunch of clauses and said the school was agreeing to. Well, when i arrived, the contract had changed and now the school has said they will not honor anything the agency said. So i ended up losing some of my salary. So i know u stated you trust your agency, and i did to at the time but theres a good chance that agency is just trying to get you to China so they can get paid and then after that, ya might not be able to contact that agency.

Thats my experience though. Im sure other people have a wide variety of experiece but i will never go through an agency ever again. I would just go directly to the school. But there are some good agencies out there. Hope it helps a bit.

shenyanggerry · Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 619 Location: Canada

From what I see here, I was lucky. I was given almost everything I was promised. I also got unpromised benefits that more than made up the minor lies. That being said, I'm in a financial position to say 'sideways' and jump on a plane home.

I'm going back for the third time to the same university. Obviously I'm happy with them.

Giantbudwiser · Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:01 am Post subject:

Now you�re abroad so you still have more bargaining power. Ask if you can sign the contract and fax it to them and have them stamp it and fax it back to you before you come. Then your legally protected, the agency doesn�t want to sign the contract with you because they have no legal right to and if things turn bad later on they will have legal responsibility so that�s why they want you to wait and sign after you come.

lagerlout2006 · Joined: 17 Sep 2003 Posts: 985

I think what it comes down to is you need to trust them---or not..

If they are nasty the contract wont matter much.

By the way I don't think a fax is legal document---it may need to be done by courier...I am told now I can fax a contract but would sign the REAL one when I arrive...

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

I regard it as standard practice for a school to supply at least a contract SPECIMEN so that you know what you are going to sign over here.
But in your case there are three parties involved; I suppose your agent is a China-based go-between. They don't normally sign a contract with you because they hold absolutely no responsability for you. They do on occasion sign an agreement with the end taker who must sign a contract with you. The school will pay THEM a commission, so that's why the school is under contract, not you. You have to be physically here to be made to accept a contract's binding stipulations.

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

I regard it as standard practice for a school to supply at least a contract SPECIMEN so that you know what you are going to sign over here.
But in your case there are three parties involved; I suppose your agent is a China-based go-between. They don't normally sign a contract with you because they hold absolutely no responsability for you. They do on occasion sign an agreement with the end taker who must sign a contract with you. The school will pay THEM a commission, so that's why the school is under contract, not you. You have to be physically here to be made to accept a contract's binding stipulations.
The only China-based go-between I can recommend is Buckland in Yangshuo.

Norman Bethune · Joined: 19 Apr 2004 Posts: 731

Worry...a little.

I am not a Pollyanna, like so many other posters on this board, when it regards Chinese contracts. Whether you see one or not before you leave your home country is totally irrelevant.

When you get here, the contract you saw will probably not be the one you are asked to sign.

A Chinese employment contract has no validity outside of China, let alone in many cases, within China.

It bears repeating often here: Chinese Contract Law is not based on the guiding principles of Western Common Law or Western Ideas of Jurisprudence.

The Fancy wording of the Laws promulgated by Beijing ring familiar to Western ears; but when those laws are then interpreted by the Chinese School Administrators and local party Hacks sitting on dispute tribunals when a problem arises, it sounds too much like Beijing Opera.

In most western countries a contract will be interpreted by the courts (should a dispute arise) based upon the words contained only within the written contract (a legal nicetie called the Parole Evidence rule prevents hearsay evidence and verbal promises being admitted to support a claim). In China, when a dispute arises, a court will listen to any evidence, the hearsay of any Tom, Dick and Harry is admissable as evidence of the contract. And all the evidence will be presented, from your first complaint to the FAO when the school breaches a term in the contract to your last complaint to a Party official appointed to adjudicate the dispute, in the Chinese Language (translatated badly into english for you). Everything is taken into consideration to decide the case, lies and truth, rumour and innuendo.

A Chinese contract is never really enforceable by a Foreign Teacher. Even if you never get paid and all the promises by the school are broken, the contract will always be interpreted in the Chinsese Schools favour.

I don't care what anyone else says. The system is stacked against you. The Law is always on the side of the Chinese school and person because:

1. The foreign teacher can't speak Chinese well enough to present his case, or in many instances knows who to turn to for help.

2. Lawyers are expensive here, like everywhere else. Teachers rarely can afford to hire one when things fo wrong.

3. All the hearings into the dispute will be ajudicated by Chinese people. Impartiality ain't on the bench here.

4. Quanxi rules. Foreign teachers nver have the kind needed to prevail over a state funded school and its beureaucrats and their cronies who work for the state in the departments of justice.

5. The laws relating to employment contracts for foreigners (as for those of Chinese labourers as well) are often ignored.

6. That clause in the contract about English and Chinese versions of the contract having equal effect and weight is sheer nonsense since in the same clause is the line "In event of a dispute, the Chinese Version of the contract will prevail."

HAVING SAID THAT....most schools will deliver what is promised in the contract...but many times you will have to fight stupid little battles to make sure they give you everything they said they would.

Oh...and if you do break the contract...run away...don't try to negotiate a settlement. It is not worth the hassle.

Your trump is your passport...hold onto that sucker and make sure you know the way to Hong Kong.

cj750 · Joined: 27 Apr 2004 Posts: 3081 Location: Beijing

Norman is right on all counts. If throwin down a lawyers card doesnt work go no further...contracts are not worth the reg. # that appears in the corner...or the paper it is printed on...and the system is of little help..

Atlas · Joined: 09 Jun 2003 Posts: 662 Location: By-the-Sea PRC

Consider what this request would get you back home: a smile, and a quick fax of the contract. You aren't even here yet and you're experiencing deflections. Consider why they might be reluctant to show you a copy until your a$$ is in China and you are committed--depending on them. They want you over a barrel my friend. Consider it the first lesson of many.

tofuman · Joined: 02 Jul 2004 Posts: 937

OP
This deal sounds a bit shady, actually, it sounds ridiculous. Think about it. You are being asked to fly, to China, at your own expense to bind yourself to a contract that you have not read. Only a desperate person would do such a thing.
Liars and cheats abound in this business. I overlooked what I thought was a simple grammatical mistake in my contract because the meaning seemed obvious. The school cheated me on that very point and used the ambiguity of the wording to justify themselves. .

These folks are all about empowering themselves at your expense. It's not pretty.

The contract is meaningless enough. Don't be silly and "trust" the agency.

There are plenty of jobs available in China. Your agency does not have your best interests in mind. Let them provide you with a round trip ticket and tell them if you don't like the contract, you reserve the right to decline and fly home at their expense. Then you'll find out if they can be "trusted."

beck's · Joined: 06 Apr 2003 Posts: 426

I'm very careful. I didn't get my visa and plane tickets until I had a signed, chopped contract and a letter of invitation. These were sent to me by airmail. Once I had these documents then I felt comfortable coming to China. In my opinion, any school not willing to send you a contract and letter of invitation is not to be trusted.