Job Discussion Forums

[hkgirlo]

Aghhh! I just read the so called "Dicipline" idea section of this site and I was horrified. There was one teacher who kisses kids with lipstick to punish them. I can't say that I think that's acceptable... might get in trouble with the law.... c'mon teachers...you must know about proper ways to dicipline ESL students...and if you do stuff like kiss them, then maybe you shouldn't be allowed near them!
If you have any good (note the word good... meaning somethng that doesn't embarass or belittle kids) ideas...then add them to the list.

[Newbs]

hkgirlo I tend to agree with a lot of what you say. It's been awhile since I looked at the Discipline section, but I recall that I felt a lot of it wasn't appropriate. At the time I put it down to cultural differences but now I'm not so sure.

I was a long time teaching in Australia and now I'm teaching in China so there are some differences in the discipline issue to be sure. Here, I am rather conscious of kids loosing face, as that seems to be a rather serious issue. However, I guess that means that I apply a similar guide to what I used in Australia. If a pupil needed some discipline I created the impression in his mind (usually his not hers) that he has absolutely overstepped the line and a fate worse than death awaited him. Then, at the last minute I backed off. Usually, I ended up with a friend for life. Okay, it's an exaggeration, but I hope you can see what I mean.

When the issue has been resolved I try to adhere to the maxim "Leave 'em laughing."

Hope this has been of some assistance.

[once again]

You should try praise instead of discipline. It works much better in the short and long term.

[hkgirlo]

What happened to teaching logical concequences and responsibility for ones behavior. I know that is hard, especially here. I managed to control and teach this type of dicipline to my class of 26 kindergarteners(Chinese- international section). I'm teaching primary now, and the class teachers deal with the dicipline( not very well, I must add!). But, the philosophy remains the same no matter where you are in the world (or at least it should). One thing I did learn while teaching kindergarten, the Chinese 'style' of dicipline tends to work for Chinese kids. I was totally disgusted with the way the teachers treated the children when I first arrived. I grew to understand that the children resond to that and are taught at home the same way (if any dicipline exists at home at all). It's all so difficult!!!

[once again]

Hk girl wrote:

[ChrisRose]

The most disgraceful punishment I ever saw was;

The students being forced to stand in teh cooridor and copy from their English course books.

Now you don't need to have a P.h.D. to understand basic Behavourist theroy, do you?

What better way short of beating the students with the core English books could thier possibly be to create a negative attitude to English teaching?

P.S. My suggestion of getting the little blighters on punishment detail to clean the toilets was met with a hearing.

[foster]

When my students misbehave, I write their name in a book. After a few infractions, the discipline committee deal with them.

The copying is a popular punishment in my school, but one i will never use. Also, my co-panel chair will make them memorise a passage before they can go home after school. Who does that punish...me or them?

[prplfairy]

The whole positive discipline thing is great but will only get you so far. If a kid knows the rules, knows why the rules are there and then still chooses to blatantly break those rules the kid doesn�t need to praised, they need to be taught a sense of responsibility and ownership for their education. Part of that responsibility is a �you break it, you fix� policy where kids are held accountable for their actions. That means that a kid needs to do what it takes to make a situation right. If that means a �punishment� of say writing an apology letter or staying after school to finish incomplete homework, then so be it. That in the long run will teach kids responsibility and make them realize that being good is a lot easier and more fun than being bad.

[hkgirlo]

I agree!!!

[once again]

What if the kid doesn't mind staying behind. What if writing an apology doesn't bother her/him? Where are you left to go when punishment fails?
In reality, what can a school actually do when a pupil refuses to go to detention? Call the parents, and then what. In fact, we are very limited on any kind of punishment that would have any real deterent effect.

I would rephrase what prplfairy says, and posit that punishment will only get you so far. I firmly believe that the vast majority of people need some kind of social reward for their actions. If they are being naughty all the time then they must be getting some kind or reward from that. Maybe the punishment is some kind of reward. Maybe the student really enjoys annoying the teacher and the punishment and its degree is a measure of just how much annoyance has been caused.

Maybe the student is a so far beyond caring about punishment that no form will work. On the other hand, praise is always welcomed and acted upon. Unless you are a sociapath..and then nothing will work anyway..HA HA

[prplfairy]

We can go over "what if" situations forever. I could counter by saying that rewards and praise only get you so far and what if the student doesn't care that you praise him/her? What do you do when praise fails? Duality is a double-edged sword and the only resistance was to the idea that punishment should be done away with entirely in favor of simply praising. That is in short, that striking a balance between punishment and rewarding, in your view, should be given up in favor of relying absolutely on praising. I disagree, though not to the point of rely on punishment absolutely as that would be as unwise as it counterbalance, and that is why I did not say anything against using praise in moderation but rather that using just praise is a recipe for failure.

The point is that an effective punishment when used with praise can be effective. Of course punishment will only get you so far, you also need to reward and praise students but more important than praising or punishing, as I said in the last post, is establishing a sense of responsibility and ownership for one's education. This means several things. It means students realizing that there are positive and negatives associated with certain actions. A kid can't set another kids on fire and be praised for his nimble use of matches, just as punishing a kid every time he/she thinks about doing something out of line is foolish. It also means that students cannot be led around by the nose with rewards, as kids end up working for the rewards and once there are no more rewards there is no more motivation. It also means that praise is a necessary part of the program but that ultimately the student needs to be working for the student and not for the teacher, or his/her praise.

I'll say it again; kids need to be taught responsibility and a sense of ownership over their education. They need to do the right thing not because they are scared of punishment or focused on getting the next fix to satiate their reward habit but because they know it is the best thing for them and the satisfaction they receive is not born of pleasing or fearing others but by doing one�s best.

[turtlepi1]

Sort of a timely topic for me. I'm working on an Masters in Educational Technology and we are covering behaviourism at the moment.

(I'm not in HK. though I will be there this weekend for a few days.)

I'm teaching in Korea and when I first arrived I was quite uncomfortable with "physical punishment". (As are most North Americans I am sure.)

I still don't dish it out, but after having seen the effect it has on children here I am left wondering whether it is entirely a bad thing. There is no doubt reward works better than punishment, but we tend to look at things as which is "best" and ruin a system.

The concept of Heaven is lost without the concept of Hell.

Of course the problem lies in teachers who abuse their power or are just sadistic, but I do not believe that corporal punishment is evil. (though I guess the Heaven/Hell analogy might indicate otherwise...)

The problem in North America is the teacher is no longer an extension of the family. In Korea the teacher is an extension of the family. There is a difference between a family member disciplining a child to aid in their development and a stranger hitting your child.

Of course the majority of teachers would disagree with me, but they are the ones who use affection or attention (giving/withdrawling) to control their students. I think this is far more damaging to the emotional development of a child.