Job Discussion Forums

[patskey]

Im a complete novice in these forums.Which I proved last night by posting this topic in the worng place. My apology to anyone I confused:oops: Here goes. Is there an upper age limit for teaching efl in
china. Thanks in advance.

[cimarch]

No, nope, nada, none. Once you can move, speak English and teach (some would say being able to teach is optional) you're eligible.

Do a search on the China Forums, you'll turn up dozens of posts about this exact same question.

The oldest I recall hearing about was in his nineties.

Good luck.

[patskey]

Thanks Cimarch, If a 90 something did it . I`ve decades yet (wonderful) I`ll follow it through.

[Guest]

Patskey

I was 56 when I arrived in China and will turn 58 next January. I hope to teach at this School for another 6 years and then retire here in China.

Age seems to be a plus here - unlike in Australia, where you are on the scrap heap by the time you reach 50.

Go for it

[laodeng]

Rhonda and cimarch, oh, how I wish that you were right, but I'm afraid that I must heartily disagree with you.

There is massive age prejudice in China, particularly in larger (and, to my mind, more desirable) locations and in proprietary schools. Witness, for instance, the increasing number of ads in which they state that they are not interested in applicants over 50.

The only places where they actually welcome older (i.e., 50+) teachers are in locations or job situations so godawful that they are pitifully grateful to get a teacher who is ambulatory and not a raving lunatic (although they might waive the latter requirement).

Yes, if you have guan1 xi or you have somehow demonstrated to someone's satisfaction that you are probably not going to drop dead on school property before the term is out, then you have a chance, at least at universities, even in larger cities.

Having said all this, I will state that at age 68 I have been working since September 2003 at a second-tier university in Shanghai. And they have been reasonably accommodating. At the same time, I know that, despite advanced degrees and considerable teaching experience, I am being paid less than others---they figure (probably correctly) that I have no bargaining chips. And if the supply of experienced teachers interested in this school ever improves, than I suspect that my contract will not be renewed.

[lagerlout2006]

China is maybe the most tolerant but Laodeng is correct. Look at chinatefl and schools have an age bracket---usually 25-55 or something in that range and "in good health" is always mentioned.

At my last school (private) there was a 60ish teacher with a decade experience. He wanted to renew but was not welcome..(School didn't say no-they just said maybe and strung him on until he left on his own). He was liked and considered a good teacher. The problem was 1 of 2 things---or both. He needed to be taken to hospital twice last year and this might have worried them---or they wanted a younger face for the parents.
Also I don't think he helped his cause by talking about "staying forever" When you get a job take things one contract at a time.

[laodeng]

Yes, private--i.e., proprietary--schools suck longest and loudest in this respect.

BTW, he was taken to the hospital in the sense that he couldn't get there under his own power? Jeez.

[Roger]

China does certainly practise ageism and racism and other forms of ostracism, but I am quite convinced, foreignatment on these scores than locals do - in fact, many employers do prefer mature folks over young and green ones, no doubt due to bad experience!

Public schools that I worked at all employed and employ people in their 50s and 60s; training centres may want to hire youngish ones for photogenic considerations but in the end, they change their minds often enough when they find that young candidates lack a certain behavioral know-how.

I haven't been to recruiting websites lately, so laodeng might be right in saying they post such age limits; whether they stick to them is another matter, though.

Don't place too high hopes on private employers - they are on their way out.

[laodeng]

Roger, for the past two weeks I've been mulling over your reply. Something is confusing me, and perhaps you can clarify. I am aware that many long-in-the-tooth chaps like me have found happy berths in public schools, principally zhong1 xue2 (in Shanghai at least). But many if not all of these public schools apparently are not authorized to hire foreign teachers directly, but, rather, must get them through labor contractors. But the labor contractors I've come into contact with are reluctant to hire older teachers. Whence the discrepancy?

[Guest]

Alas, I fear you are correct. I DO live in an isolated area that not many people wish to teach in and I recently found out that I am being paid less than the younger teachers here - so the idea that they actually VALUE me has gone out of the window.

It is just as well that money is not my motivation here - what keeps me here is love for the community and the life I live in China.

[laodeng]

Yes, just as well, just as well . . . But it makes to hard to respect, much less love, one's employers.

[Old Dog]

I find this question interesting since I am nudging 67. I've been here for some years. The only difficulty I have had is that prior to 65, the school was keen on 2-year contracts but once I hit 65, the Education Authorities in Head Office insisted on only a 1 year contract.

As for pay, theoretically I get paid more than everyone, Principal's official salary included - though I don't get the big black "school" car with heated seats and smoked glass windows. Nor do I get the nightly 5-star restaurant dinners nor have any access to the "back door" fee payments. But still, I get by. However, I'm aware that once Chinese teachers hit the retiring age - 57 or whatever - very often they return to work but at a reduced salary.

My impression is (and that's as much as can be made of Chinese silence) that my own contract will be extended for as long as I'm not in a state of physical or mental decay since they know damn well the students love my lessons and that I'm good PR material via word of mouth for the school.

There was a teacher in a city near here a few years ago who was 70 or 70+. The city was Yangzhou which is not too dreadful a place - near Nanjing and on the Thin Western Lake and all that. He seemed to be welcome and then, of his own volition, he moved on to a university in Kunming. What his level of pay was in relation to others, I don't know. And might I add, he was of Afro-American origin (I don't know the current vogue term so apologies to anyone if I've got it wrong). Since there's often a definite prejudice here against any skin colour other than white (yellow included), he seemed to fall into the right place for him. He had a limp but was generally in good health as far as I could see and spoke the most beautiful English - He was a retired University Librarian, as I recall. I'd say any school securing his services was damn lucky regardless of his age.


I think the crux of the matter probably involves the following factors:
a. What value does the school find in your presence in terms of the quality of your teaching and the "word of mouth" value you have to the school via positive reports among parents of the worth of your lessons.
b. What worth do you place on yourself and what salary are you prepared to insist on if the school wishes to retain your services.
c. Is your age and your expensive face a greater plus to the school and is it without the negatives that might come from cheaper, less skilled, less experienced, more mobile "tourist"-type foreign teachers?

Against this is my feeling, sometimes stronger than others, that the quality of your work is quite immaterial to your assessed worth here. What is important is your foreign face. That's what the schools are really paying for. So I suppose that if the kids observe you have a foreign face, if they like your lessons and if they report that they like you and that you are helping them in some way towards exam success, you're OK. But the real quality of your lessons is pretty immaterial.

In our school, there is a definite prejudice against young females. They might want to go out at night and be seen in places where young female teachers (who should be at home looking after their babies) should never be seen, e.g. karaoke bars. China's obsession with security does not give young females much hope of employment in this school.

But I've been in China long enough to know never to trust a Chinese smile and so I make plans now to do other things than teaching in China if I should choose to remain here for whatever time after someone thinks that, as a teacher, I'm for the scrap heap.

[laodeng]

A thoughtful analysis, O.D., and much appreciated.

[sojourner]

Rhonda,

You mentioned that you are being paid less than what your younger colleagues are getting. This may not necessarily be because of some sort of ageist policy on your school's behalf. It could be because you are working for only 10 hours pw.(BTW, how many hours pw do your (younger ) colleagues normally work ? ).

Also, in a number of your postings to these forums you have often mentioned that you have neither a degree or a TESOL certificate. It's quite possible that your school takes academic qualifications into consideration when determining one's salary.

Rhonda, I don't think that you are too badly off ! You mentioned that you are being paid 3800 RMB per month, have a rent-free flat, as well as being provided with free meals, free Internet access, etc. - all for only 10 'hours' work pw ! (I suppose that a 'teaching hour' at your school is of 45 minutes duration, as it is at many other schools ). Anyway, you are certainly much better off than someone living on the Gold Coast or in Sydney, who is either on the dole, or earning a pittance under some bs AWA, and is paying high rent for a hovel. So, count your blessings !

Regards,

Peter

[laodeng]

Roger, please note query above. Thanks.