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b3n84
Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 1
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 Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 9:42 am Post subject: Harvard Student Teaching English in Shanghai |
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Hello everyone. After lurking around this forum for the past 2 months in an attempt to glean every parcel of information possible in regards to teaching English in China and, in particular, Shanghai, I've decided to make my first post. I've quickly learned that there are a lot of illegitimate scam schools out there, so I've come to ask your advice. To be quick and straightforward:
I'm a 20 year old Chinese Male (born and raised in NYC), native English speaker, Proficient in Mandarin (6 years formal training), and current Harvard College Student. I'm looking to visit Shanghai for this upcoming summer (from June-August) and teach English (I will be doing this with at least one or two friends who attend college with me and of a similar background).
Are there any legitimate programs that would pay well? Is my best bet summer English camps?
Is it too much to expect to be able to obtain a summer job where I could make money for the summer and cover all my living/travelling experiences?
Do I need a Working Visa if I'm staying only for the summer?
And honestly, will being a Harvard student help in any way? (I'm not trying to be pretentious, but rather to gain a realistic perspective.) Since I lack adequate teaching background and a TEFL cert, I hope that I could use my educational background as a convincing credential. I've also done very well in English writing contests and English Standarized testing.
Thanks a lot everyone for any help that you can provide me. |
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NateM
Joined: 19 Apr 2004
Posts: 358
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 10:32 am Post subject: |
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I'm not sure what kind of luck you'll have teaching. Those are kind of odd time requirements. You could probably do private tutoring or summer camps, (summer camps generally suck though, from what I'm told). Given your language abilities, you might have better luck trying to get work with a company in Shanghai, or maybe there are some companies with offices in Shanghai that would be interested in having you as an intern. Perhaps there are even study abroad opportunities that you could apply for that could take you over on scholarship. I'm pretty sure that the school I went to offered full scholarships for a summer Chinese program that was through Fudan University in Shanghai, Nankai in Tianjin, and Beijing University. Perhaps Harvard has something similar?
This is all, of course, assuming that you simply want to come to China and are looking for a way to pay for it, and not dead-set on teaching. |
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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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Believe it or not, American Born Chinese do seem to have enormous difficulty finding teaching positions in China, irrespective of their credentials, because foreign teachers are hired not only for their ability to speak English natively but primarily for their Whiteness; it's a marketing tool.
Legally, in order to teach in China, even for three months, you need a Z-Visa which requires that you have a degree in hand; unfortunately, the fact that you are a Harvard student (as much promise as that holds for you in the future) and not currently a graduate, doesn't provide you with any advantage for the purposes of teaching in China now. Once you graduate, your diploma from Harvard would render you highly competitive here because there is a fascination with and attraction to anything that is "famous." Just about every Chinese high school and college student can rattle off the names of each of the eight Ivy League universities by heart.
But if you are looking for a well-paying job during the summer break between academic years, I don't believe this is the best answer for you. Once you graduate from Harvard, and given that you are bilingual, there will be many promising international opportunities available to you if that's what you are interested in.
Good luck!
Doc |
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Madmaxola
Joined: 04 Jul 2004
Posts: 238
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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hmm who knows.
As long as you work your darndest everything will work out fine.
(was there ever worse advice given?) |
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ChinaMovieMagic
Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 2102
Location: YangShuo
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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Go for it!!!
Summer school will pprovide housing/food etc.
Shanghai TV Station (in Pudong) has one...w/boat races, physical competitions etc.
Your lack of a degree should not be a problem for a Summer Camp
Check out "Promoting Change in China's Classrooms" |
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millie
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 413
Location: HK
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| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 7:19 am Post subject: |
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All depends what you suggest is “well paid” but possibly (almost?) enough to cover your total expenses.
You may want to look at it as an experience rather than a money making exercise especially given you have no teaching background.
It is very common for people in Shanghai to teach on a business visa and as legal as it need be.
Good luck.
M |
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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| Dave Sperling wrote: |
You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate any applicable laws.
11. Self-policing by the community at large is encouraged. |
| millie wrote: |
| It is very common for people in Shanghai to teach on a business visa and as legal as it need be. |
Millie, I'm curious, can you point us to any authoritative and definitive reference which clearly states requirements set forth by the SAFEA are different in Shanghai than for the rest of the mainland? Because, if you can't, be aware that you are actively and persistently encouraging foreigners on this forum to violate the law in China.
Irrespective of what may be common practice or what foreign teachers and their unscrupulous employers might be able to get away with, in Shanghai or anywhere else in China, this is grossly irresponsible of you - and also in violation of this forum's policies.
Doc |
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millie
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 413
Location: HK
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| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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You are joking, surely, but if not then I suggest you get off your high horse, Doc.
BTW: Quite apart from common practice in this matter as I have observed it in Shanghai and thus related it, I do trust that you contentiously follow all the prevailing laws and interpretations as they apply to you and your situation.
Consequently, I would be alarmed if you had knowingly purchased or used any pirated DVD’s here in China.
Over and out.
M |
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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| millie wrote: |
| You are joking, surely, but if not then I suggest you get off your high horse, Doc. |
No Millie, I am not joking about this - I am as serious right now as a heart attack.
There's quite enough misery and abuse of foreigners in China without forum members unwittingly (no matter how well-intentioned they may be) aiding and abetting unscrupulous private English language schools and their agents.
The bottom line is, and I am disappointed that you would miscategorize and castigate this position as being a morally superior one, prospective foreign teachers rely upon the information we provide here before making their final decisions to uproot their lives and head off to China. Yes, Millie, some people do manage to teach here for long periods of time without incident on an F-Visa. However, some do get caught, fined and deported - and whether you believe it or not or have such first-hand knowledge; it actually happens. Advising people that working in China on an F-Visa, under these set of circumstances (and especially in light of the fact, that by all indications, things are tightening up on the Visa front), is "a big advantage," �more of less legal� or �legal as it need be� is irresponsible and entirely unhelpful of you. How many times have we read posts on this forum from unsuspecting foreign teachers who find themselves without a job, without proper funds to do anything about it and begging for help? Coming to China with a Z-Visa, aside from being the only legal way of doing it, provides some protection against finding yourself in the position that so many young people do when dealing with so many unscrupulous recruitment agencies and private schools � because by moving to China on the strength of a Z-Visa one knows, at the very least, that some real school with a license to hire foreigners is sponsoring you. There is some protection in that.
I personally feel that the act of encouraging prospective foreign teachers to move to China, with anything other than a Z-Visa, is so egregiously reckless and potentially harmful to others that I have asked Mr. Sperling for clarification of his position on the matter.
Doc
To All Prospective Teachers Who May Be Reading This: Do NOT allow anyone (anonymous forum members, foreign affair officers, western recruiters, recruitment agencies), to urge or convince you to move to China with the intention of teaching with anything other than a Z-Visa. Aside from the fact that doing so is illegal, you bare a significant risk of moving up to half-way around the world to find yourself stranded in China without a job, without money and without legal recourse to do anything about it. You should only work for schools licensed by the government to hire foreign teachers (to issue Z-Visas) and if a licensed school wants you badly enough, and as you are willing to make the trip to China, they should be willing to sponsor your Z-Visa based on the strength of your resume, your credentials, photos and through telephone interviews. Do NOT allow anyone to convince you that the school's need for a personal interview justifies uprooting your life for a job that may or may not be there when you arrive, no matter how good or promising it might otherwise sound. Please feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions about this at all.
Gregory Mavrides, PhD
Professor
Hainan University, Haikou, China
E-mail: [email protected]
Last edited by Talkdoc on Thu Feb 10, 2005 3:31 am; edited 12 times in total |
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echo2004sierra
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Posts: 90
Location: prc
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| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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It is NOT legal for a foreigner in China to work/teach without full and proper legal documentation. An F Visa does not satisfy to the criteria.
With all due respect, buying pirated discs is slightly different as there isn't the element of defrauding the Chinese government out of tax revenues, but you could be sorely prosecuted for handling such goods.
A lot of Chinese officials are believed by some to take bribes, but when they get caught their lives are ruined.
I myself believe that governments of foreign countries should not criminalize the activity of making money just based on a lack of working visas, but the fact is that they do and labourers who don't abide by the law and get caught will be subjected to the heavy hand of the law.
My view is that teaching is giving a service to society, doing them some good, but if you don't have your docs (legal documents) your good can go to the devil. |
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millie
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 413
Location: HK
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 5:32 am Post subject: |
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Doc, let’s get back to your original assertion (which you subsequently repeat in different forms several times), which says I am…
| Quote: |
| actively and persistently encouraging foreigners on this forum to violate the law in China. |
A rather long bow to draw, don’t you think?
Persistently means repeatedly, constantly or without abatement. Certainly more than once or thrice.
If you state that I am persistently encouraging people then I must be promoting, persuading or actively suggesting on a regular and frequent basis.
Where are these persistently encouraging posts?
In fact, I have not but rather I have pointed out that actual practice, as I have observed it, is quite different in Shanghai to many other places.
To suggest that I have been actively and persistently encouraging foreigners on this forum to violate the law in China, or that I have been
| Quote: |
| egregiously reckless (in) the act of encouraging |
on is simply disingenuous your part.
There are quite a number of things which are different in Shanghai and the absolute requirement for household registration is another.
One of the obvious realties of China is that it is a large country with significant regional variations in numerous matters and the interpretation of the law promulgated in BeiJing is but one of them.
Finally I totally agree with your paragraph “To All Prospective Teachers Who May Be Reading This”
If the school cannot offer you a Z visa at some time before or soon after your arrival, then it means that the school cannot legally employ you. That is very straightforward.
However, I have observed that many teachers in Shanghai work on business visas.
I have seen pirated DVD’s and prostitution on the streets here too.
On this forum, I have also made mention of changing money on the grey market and buying train tickets from non-official channels as well.
Welcome to China.
If you wish to dispense advice, please be free in this regard but there is no need to unfairly misrepresent others in order to do so.
Thank you.
M |
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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| millie wrote: |
| A rather long bow to draw, don�t you think? |
No, I don't think so at all. You have, on a least two separate and very recent occasions (that I am aware of), in response to distress calls and request for help, advised people that working in Shanghai on an F-Visa is a "big advantage," "more or less legal," and "legal as it need be." That was the entire basis of my objection: which, not surprisingly, you respond to by suggesting that I am acting morally superior (high horse) and engaging in hypocrisy. Then, in an attempt to avoid simply admitting you misspoke, you accuse me of being unfair and misrepresenting you.
| millie wrote: |
There are quite a number of things which are different in Shanghai and the absolute requirement for household registration is another.
One of the obvious realties of China is that it is a large country with significant regional variations in numerous matters and the interpretation of the law promulgated in BeiJing is but one of them. |
Millie, I have to wonder, can you simply admit that you misspoke? (There is really no disgrace or shame in that you know.) You can put as many spins on this as you want. You and I both know, and I wanted to make this clear to everyone who may not know any better, that teaching in Shanghai with an F-Visa (or anywhere else on the mainland for that matter) is not legal and is not a "big advantage," because of the possible risks it presents in finding out the hard way, after you arrive here, that the job you thought you had, in fact, doesn't actually exist. Would you agree with the veracity of this last statement?
| millie wrote: |
However, I have observed that many teachers in Shanghai work on business visas.
I have seen pirated DVD�s and prostitution on the streets here too.
On this forum, I have also made mention of changing money on the grey market and buying train tickets from non-official channels as well.
Welcome to China. |
You would never have seen a response from me (in any number of renditions) if that is all you had said. We all observe things here that are illegal and tolerated by the authorities, for a variety of reasons. But the fact that these illegal activities are tolerated, at least for this moment in time - and, as you know, things here can change daily and without notice - does not mean they are "more or less legal," "legal as it need be," or that engaging in them constitutes a "big advantage." Can you see that or do you still think I am being unfair to you?
| millie wrote: |
| If you wish to dispense advice, please be free in this regard but there is no need to unfairly misrepresent others in order to do so. |
I have not misrepresented you at all Millie. And claiming so is no substitute for a clear correction on your part (although, in some backdoor sort of way, I imagine the fact that you acknowledged agreement with my postscript notice could constitute an indirect retraction). Whether you've issued ill advice two, three or four times doesn't alter the main point or objective of my comments one iota - although your indignation is duly noted for the record.
Let's keep this simple and, please, answer me this; Do you agree that teaching in China (even in Shanghai) with an F-Visa is illegal (irrespective of how common it might be or the degree to which the law is enforced)? A simple "Yes" or "No" will suffice, if at all possible.
Doc
PS. I promise, this time around, not to make any last minute edits so you won't have to continue to make revisions to your rebuttal, I mean reply, before posting it.  |
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tradinup
Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 132
Location: Shenzhen, China
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| If he just wants to come here for a summer just use a three month visitor visa. Who cares if it is not the legal way? If you take a very primary law course you will learn the law is nothing without enforcement - and China has no enforcement. |
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millie
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 413
Location: HK
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 8:25 am Post subject: |
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I have never said that it is legal per se as your posts indicate.
But please don’t let that stop you and no need to get off your horse because I’ll pick up your whip.
Now it’s your turn for another supercilious post.
All yours. |
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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| tradinup wrote: |
| If he just wants to come here for a summer just use a three month visitor visa. Who cares if it is not the legal way?. |
To reiterate, my concerns here are not motivated by some higher order philosophy regarding adherence to the letter of the law but rather by the need to protect ourselves in the (not so infrequent) absence of decent and scrupulous employers who will provide what they originally promised (in this instance, a job).
By procuring a Z-Visa before arriving in China, you know two things for certain and a third one in high probability : 1) Your school is a licensed sponsor; 2) That sponsor is legally responsible for your welfare once you arrive here and 3) The chances are great the school would not have gone through the time and expense in sponsoring you unless they had a legitimate job waiting for you.
Even with a Z-Visa in hand, there are still considerable uncertainties involved with any private school job (especially a summer program) such as whether you will be paid on time (or even at all) and what the accommodations will be like, etc., etc. Without a Z-Visa in hand, you face the aforementioned problems PLUS the uncertainty of whether you will even have a job here once you arrive. One possible way of offsetting most of that risk would be to insist that the school prepay your roundtrip ticket for you. However, if they then decide to play games with your salary, what recourse do you have: Go to the PSB or provincial Foreign Affairs Office with an L-Visa in hand, admitting to having worked here illegally for an unlicensed school? I wouldn't count on receiving quick and sympathetic results.
No one should consider coming to China to teach on the basis of a tourist or business Visa - but if one does, he better have access to enough funds to support himself for a couple of months (or more, depending on the time of the year) as well as to cover the cost of his return flight.
Given the amount of potential income we are talking about (for a ten-week period), in my mind's eye, it's simply not worth the risk involved.
Besides, although useful and helpful to others, this discussion about Z- vs. F-Visas has been predominantly all for naught in regard to the original poster who, made it clear from the onset, that he was looking for a job that "pays well" (presumably) in order to support himself during the following academic year at Harvard. What could he possibly hope to save in a few weeks time in China: four thousand RMB, maybe five a the most? He could earn more than that just working as a camp counselor in the states at a sleep-away camp (including tips) for eight weeks with no risk and culture shock involved.
Of course, then he would have missed the fun, excitement and adventure of having played Russian Roulette with his summer plans.
Doc
Last edited by Talkdoc on Thu Feb 10, 2005 8:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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