Job Discussion Forums

[Don Alan]

After a lifetime of living in a very safe suburb and later in the tranquility of a small town in Spain, I have got used to feeling safe and unthreatened.
However, I have to say as I walk through downtown Santiago my fingers pass over my trouser pocket repeatedly and I ask myself why. Is it because almost every one of my girlfriend�s family in Santiago have been robbed or mugged at some stage? In the last couple of weeks both my girlfriend and her sister have had their mobile phones stolen. A few months ago her mother was robbed and badly beaten up for trying to resist. And in the limited time I have spent in Santiago, three young men tried to open my girlfriend�s haversack from behind while walking through the busy city centre. Fortunately, I spotted them and they walked on. I write this so that those contemplating coming to Santiago keep a careful eye on their belongings and remember that the opportunity makes the criminal. To be honest, I hhave never heard so many stories of thieving and petty crime in so short a time and I think it very much reflects Chilean society. Yes, they are some people who do quite nicely, a wealthy minority, and then there is what I would describe as a poor middle class and after that many who live in real poverty and can never afford the things we take for granted like a mobile phone. Like most South American countries there is a very uneven distribution of wealth. The minimum wage in Chile is $200 a month and there are many who live on a lot less than that.

[eileen]

Unfortunately, I`d have to agree. Especially on Estado, Auhumada, on the Alameda, etc. And it`s not a case of looking like a gringo, obviously, since your gf`s family has also been ripped off. I know many Chileans who have been the victims of street crime. Getting beaten up is unusual, having your cell phone stolen is practically a right of passage. I have a couple of friends who have had them stolen out of their hands as they were on the phone. More commonly, out of a daypack or pocket.

It`s pretty awful, really. But the thing about the cellphones and other electronics is that there`s such a healthy black market, something has to fuel it. A friend also had her discman almost taken from her. She chased down the kid that took it, tackled him and took it back. She was in the metro, so I guess she felt safe enough doing it. Other stories too, of course.

Having just been in Rio for a week, I can say I feel much safer in Santiago than there, but certainly have to keep on the lookout for such things.

Not Santiago`s best feature, is it?

[Don Alan]

Interesting comments Eileen. As you say just having the phone in your hand might be an opportunity for a quick footed thief. I�m back in Santiago 24 February and here's hoping I don't get my laptop pinched. I have no intention of carrying it through the streets because it would be something worth murdering for. However, let's see if I can make it from the airport to my accomodation in one piece! Thanks for your previous suggestions about good places to take a coffee which I have noted down.

I don't want to be doom and gloom but I honestly believe mentioning these things about safety helps people to be more alert denying the criminals their chances or at least making it much more unlikely to be robbed. I would add that it's better not to resist even if you are a woman not to think that they won't bash you up as happened to my girlfriend's mother, mother of five children with a heart condition. My girlfriend got away with it once when a boy tried to steal her bag with her university books. She was stopped and physically threatened but started to argue with him as she didn't want to surrender the bag because it had some important assignments for that day. After giving him a verbal lashing for some minutes and ignoring his threats he walked away. Poor guy! He got more than he bargained for!

[matttheboy]

I have to say that, however much i hate the place, i've never, ever felt threatened in Santiago. In the centre you do have to watch out a bit more but it's not that bad. It's the constant pushing and shoving that annoys me and i guess this is when people get pickpocketed. If you make like a chileno and simply barge everyone (small kids, old women, pregnant ladies, everyone, oh don't forget not to say 'excuse me' or 'sorry') no one will get the chance to nick anything.

Driving in santiago i don't find threatening either. Here in Buenos Aires i would never buy a car as 85% of express/normal kidnappings occur as people (normally about my age) are getting in/out of cars and at red-lights. This isn't a very common occurence but it does happen. As long as you lock the door in santiago you're fine. Street crime here is actually quite low although it obviously happens. Around the centre, recoleta and palermo are all pretty safe and this is where the vast majority of foreigners are. And here you really can't stop off at a cash point on the way to somewhere for the worry that the driver will rob you. And having to walk 4 blocks after taking money out of a cash-point before being ok to hail a taxi.

Having said that, i've never actually felt threatened in general in buenos aires.

No one i know has been a victim of street crime in santiago. The closest i know of is when my girlf's aunt was driving and had a bag on the back seat. Someone tried to open the door. It was locked, he ran off.

And in comparison to some parts of south america santiago is like singapore...quito was the dodgiest place although getting mugged there was quite entertaining, going something like this:

-'I've got a gun, give me your money' (clearly his finger in his pocket pointing at me'.
-No you don't. That's your finger. (3 friends of his arrive)
-Ok, it's my finger but we're 4 v 1 now.
-Fair enough, take whatever's in my pockets (they do so and start to walk off)
-Eh, hang on. Can i have my keys back please, i need to go home.
-Sure (keys thrown in my direction)
-Thanks.
-You're welcome, Chau.

You're unlikely to face gun-point robbery in the busiest tourist/nightlife areas in santiago, or for that matter, buenos aires (i know of at least 8 friends who have been robbed at proper gun-point in the major tourist area in quito) . Just a few basic street smarts should see you through. The only time anywhere in the world (including places where the poverty is way worse than chile) i've been robbed was that time in quito and it kind of was my fault, being very drunk at 2am and walking the 200m home instead of taking a taxi...

[Don Alan]

Points taken Matt but all I can say was I find it quite shocking to know that nearly every member of my girlfriend's family has been a victim of crime. If you make the rule you go by: if one hasn't been held up with a gun the place isn't so bad. Then it's true Santiago isn't so bad. I have many years of two big cities Madrid and Glasgow, in neither I have felt threatened. I lived in the safe suburbs of both but I had my nights out etc in the city centre and never felt in the least threatened. In Santiago, however, I wouldn't walk home alone at night through the city and through the day I would be on my guard.
With regard to poverty, I read in the El Mercurio, Santiago's biggest newspaper, a few months ago that 7 million Chileans lived below the minimum wage which is about 200 dollars a month. I believe the population is about 15 millions so to me that says half of Chile is living in poverty. It's true the economy is going well but all that cash just goes to about 10%. As a matter of fact the other day I tuned into Radio Chilena and there was a feature about the uneven distribution of wealth and according to official figures it is one of the worst in the world. There was obviously plenty of rot and corruption during the Pinochet years and there are still rich wankers milking the workers and paying them peanuts which is social injustice, resulting in poverty, contributing to fuelling crime.

[BigNorm]

Three weeks before my wife and I were to leave Santiago, someone broke into our apartment. When living in Santiago, make sure you have a consierge. We didn't (apartments by the Telefonico building..in front of Metro Baquerdano). The front door to the building was open. Someone used a tool to break in our door. Took everything (laptop, my shoes, my book bag, my wife's wedding ring, and the remote control....those *beep*). Funny thing....as a teacher, I would come and go since I didn't have a straight schedule of classes so someone had to have been watching us. It was not the best of good-bye presents!

Overall I felt very safe in the city. Now the buses took a while to get used to. Always an adventure after a night of drinking and then getting on the bus to get home. I like how the buses fight each other on the road trying to get to the passengers first. Chilean theives are very good at what they do so make sure you have your eyes on your belongings at all times.

[matttheboy]

It is true that chile has the largest wealth gap in south america making for many, many desperate people. However, i've walked around in santiago with my santiaguina girlfriend late at night and never felt threatened. It's not something i'd do in the centre or some parts of bella vista but around providencia it's really pretty safe.

Compare this with almost every single English town at 11pm on a friday night and i'd say santiago is unbelievably safe. My very small, beautiful dorset town is a regular battle ground at the weekend and last time myslef and my friends went out in the larger town a few miles away we got into a fight because we'd been to a rugby club dinner, were wearing suits and someone said, as soon as we'd walked through the door "oim garna fight them lot layyyyter'. No reason. Just because we were wearing suits. He did indeed start a fight with us later, with a couple of his mates, and deeply regretted it when we kicked the shi te out of him (there were 8 of us v 3 of them, shows how stupid these people are really...). And the police arrested him because he'd been banned from the town centre for starting fights in the past. And very nearly said thank you to us for taking him out, saved him a job... I should probably add at this point that fighting goes completely against my normal behaviour and i and my friends will usually avoid trouble at all costs, but when someone follows you around for an hour and then punches your mate...

I feel more threatened walking through notting hill, an area of london i know very well, late at night than walking through providencia. The random, drunken violence which occurs so regularly in England and makes the place so, fcuking unpleasant to live in, simply doesn't happen in Santiarsehole. You might get mugged but only if you're very unlucky, whereas in england, you may very well get your head kicked in...

right, time for 'desperate housewives'...

[Guy Courchesne]

Matt, just for comparison's sake....I find Mexico City to be similar. I've never felt unsafe in this place. Of course there are muggings, but generally speaking, muggers are after the money, not the joy of violence my fellow Canadians and Americans are into.

I really think that Latin America as a whole is misjudged this way.

[matttheboy]

Agreed, people rob for money, not to be violent for the sake of being violent...i don't feel unsafe in latin america on the whole and i know that, unless i'm really unlucky and don't put up a fight all i'll lose is a few quid...

as for americans and canadians being violent, if you've never been to a normal, average, english town on a friday night then you really haven't witnessed pure, drunken, random violence (of course we don't use guns in england so fewer people actually die...)

Back to ER now (how apt...!)

[Guy Courchesne]

I can't speak so much for the US (except to say it's the only place I've ever felt unsafe) but in Canada, there really isn't any gun violence either. There are a good number of places where you can mix it up on a Saturday night just by looking crossed-eyed at somebody.

In Mexico, guys show a lot of a bravado, but I've only ever seen two fistfights in all my time here. In both cases, the receiving party deserved it anyway.

[Don Alan]

Well, I can honestly say here in Scotland things are a lot calmer and yes there is stealing but mainly from shops, a neutral target. I can honestly say that here in Scotland I have never been nor never known anyone who has been robbed for money. Fights yes, stealing no.

Okay you say that the people only want the money and not the violence but what happens when you don't give them the money? Then they will employ violence as happened to my girlfriend's mother.

Big Norm says his apartment was robbed, not by casual chance but because someone was looking out constantly for an opportunity. And this is the problem, there are too many "have nots" desperate to get their hands on your stuff.

If you walk round Providencia, okay it's less likely you are going to be robbed probably, although having said that I read in "El Tercero" during my last visit that the highest rate of reported robbery was from that particular area. I guess there are more robberies in other areas but being a middle class zone probably more people report it to the police.

To be honest, I feel it will just be a matter of time before I am robbed in Santiago and I'm not sure I am going to test out your "non-violence" theory by saying no. Because whether they use violence or the threat of violence, it is still violence.

[matttheboy]

I don't know Don, i think you're taking a really negative attitude into your time in santiago and god knows the city is painful enough as it is without having something else to stress about.

I really don't think it's a matter of time before you get robbed anywhere in the world. I truly believe that it's a matter of the person. If you take risks, go to dodgy areas etc you will get robbed. If you don't keep your eye on your belongings at all times, in restaurants, cars, in the street (those extendable chain/ski locks are very effective-lock everything to your chair in restaurants etc). It's the same in the UK. On the train i lock my bags to the bag rail, i'm careful in crowded areas. It's a question of being smart, that's all.

I mean, you might be very unlucky and get mugged by someone threatening violence. This also happens in England (for eg gangs of knife wielding gangs cleaning out trains in the south-east of england then jumping off before the police get a chance to to react). One of my students was mugged in bournemouth and, being from mexico, understood it was better to just hand over his stuff. In mexico that would be that (i assume, Guy if it's different then say so). In bournemouth, they took his stuff and then beat him for no other reason than for fun and he ended up in hospital.

The only time i've been robbed or mugged was the time described above and i never really felt threatened because i knew that if i gave them what they wanted there wouldn't be a problem (and it was my fault for being where i was, when i was and drunk). I've travelled for months in thailand, cambodia and malaysia and was never robbed or mugged, same as the east coast of Oz. All places well-known for robberies and muggings.

I never go somewhere with the fear of getting robbed as it really stifles the enjoyment of being there. I don't take silly risks (would you, for example, wander around some of glasgow's dodgy estates with a camera and rucksack?) but i don't ever let the fear of crime rule what i do or where i go.

Where are you from in glasgow btw? My cousins are from Milngavie...

[bradford]

My cousin and I (both girls- 21 and 23 years old) are (were?) planning on moving to Santiago at the end of March. Reading these postings makes me feel a little nervous. I know that traveling can always be dangerous, but I lived in Madrid for 6 months and NEVER felt threatened walking around late at night. I really do not want to be in a city that makes me feel like I am waiting to be mugged or robbed. Any advice?
Thanks,
Sara

[Don Alan]

Bearsden Matt, just next door to Milngavie.

I think you are right, we need to be careful and then just get on with life. I'll just give the muggers a Glasgow kiss if you know what that means.

[matttheboy]

Hmmm, my cousins' mum's sister (no blood relation) is from bearsden...very genteel...

If you're in a crowd and someone tried to pickpocket you then i would definitely recommend a glasgow kiss...you'd probably have to bend down a long way though seeing how stumpy chilenos are...

here in Buenos Aires a few months ago, a businessman was robbed by a couple of guys on a moped-they'd watched him go to a bank and come out with about $10000 cash in a briefcase, obviously scouted him out before and knew his movements..what they didn't know was that he had a gun and he proceeded to shoot at them, in the city centre, with literally 100s of people on their lunch break. After killing them he was roundly applauded by everyone who witnessed the event, despite his stupidity in firing a gun in such a crowded area.

Moral is, the vast, vast majority of people living in Buenos Aires (and i think we could say this about most of latin america) are law-abiding citizens who want to live a normal life and who want the thieving gypos off the street as much as any foreigner does. If you got into a struggle in a crowded area i think most people would come to your aid and probably enjoy the chance to give a thief a good shoe-ing.

And Sara, if you want a truly safe city, go to Singapore. Buenos Aires and Santiago are no more dangerous than say, New York (less so nowadays) or Washington (or St Louis for that matter, now there's a place i never want to see again...) and if you stay away from the dodgy areas (like you would in any town/city) they're no more dangerous than london or madrid.

I'd stay away from santiago on the basis that it's the biggest sh*t hole on earth rather than the slight chance of getting mugged. Come to buenos aires-i can guarantee you'll enjoy it more...or your money back...