Job Discussion Forums

[MyraG]

As Leonard Cohen so sarcastically put about Jazz police I am getting to realise that there are self made self promoted ESL Grammar Police Squads popping up every where on Dave's.
I find it pathetitic that some people have top operate in teacher mode, lecturing hard working teachers on their grammar, spelling, typo errors etc without taking into account that most people these days write as they would talk, use short cuts, often do no not have much time to use the computer, maybe don't have spellcheck, maybe their computer is in a foreign language, maybe it crashes often, mine does. It's get in get out as quick as you can while it's going.
If a person was talking to you in an English Speaking country or if they sent you an e-mail with typos would you start correcting their grammar as then. I bet you wouldn't have many friends if you did. it's demeaning and it stops the flow of conversation and side tracks the conversation to be about the Grammar police and their agenda which is they cannot relate any more to people except as power tripping grammar police.
One of the best most experienced teachers I have met couldn't spell very well at all, he made his students check for him.
Any way I am glad to be off to Aus in the morning where the conversation flows and the police aren't anywhere to be seen.

[Old Dog]

MyraG, I haven't upbraided anyone recently on all you complain of - though some have, it seems. I should tell you that I applaud hard work and live with typos as we all do but when I find English "teachers" making appalling spelling and grammatical errors, I am filled with dismay. I should also tell you that I am, at this very minute, in Australia.

[Norman Bethune]

[Chris_Crossley]

You don't get grades of any kind when you post your thoughts and opinions on Dave's. What matters more is what you have to say, not how well you can spell.

I have mentioned in other threads that the need does exist to make sure that spelling is as correct as it possibly can be when you are producing a document that is meant for other people, such as a resume for a future employer or handouts for a class.

Here, though, absolutely correct spelling is not that important. It is more important that you are able to say what you have to say clearly, even if you are pushed for time because you have to get back to your class in less than 60 seconds.

[No Moss]

E-mail and Internet forums have created a temporary inconvenience for a generation raised on TV and phonics, that is, for the last few years there has been a need to write. Something written is much more permanent than something spoken, and it exposes a lot more about your knowledge of the language. It is pointless to criticize (native speaking) people about their grammar or their spelling, although I have done so in the past. It's possible to improve both, but it's unlikely that anyone will. We know as teachers that language habits become fossilized in adults and are very difficult to change. My brother has his doctorate, and he still says (and writes) "between you and I".

The solution to all this will be speech recognition software that automatically corrects your spelling and grammar. Perhaps one day there will even be software to correct fuzzy logic!

[writpetition]

Essentially, language is a means of communication and as long as one is able to communicate effectively, albeit sometimes, with some mistakes, it doesn't create too much of a problem.
However, with time language has also become something of a sophispticated tool and in using it in its 'purest' way, it conveys some of the sophistication of the user, in a manner similar to dressing. Essentially we dress to hide our bodies and sometimes to get warmth but some of us humans have made an art of it. And, the best dressers do get noticed! The lousy dressers do, too but for different reasons...If a famous personage decides to break 'rules' of dressing, it can transcend its limitations to become haute couture. If a non-famous person does, he attracts flak...although among a small or immediate group.
Reasonably correct grammar and spelling, in a sense, are like a person dressed well, though conservatively...that's all there is to it!

[Chris_Crossley]

[lagerlout2006]

Maybe you mean the Dream Police---Cheap Trick.


Or the Jazz Police by old dog .



Only thing that bothers me is when Teachers make mistakes like "their" for "there" that sort of thing. It's not a typo it means they don't know the difference. Appalling of they were ever confronted with a student over this!

Otherwise who cares? Creative writing after all and so on people can do what they like.

[laodeng]

[ryleeys]

Do mathmaticians go home and practice math every minute?

Do doctors go home and operate on their friends?

Have you observed the people you berate for poor grammar (on a social internet forum) in the classroom?


I personally think that if we had to focus 100% at home on everything we do at work, we'd all go nutty in record time. I personally don't think you can use anything as a reflection on another person's job skills than actual observation of that person in their work environment. Being an English teacher doesn't mean a person must be held to a higher standard during every second of the day, merely when that person is teaching should they be held to the higher standard.


I'd also like to point out that I speak with a southern accent and if someone were to berate me in person for saying, "y'all" "gonna" "wanna" or "goin' ", I wouldn't exactly be looking forward to spending much time with that person again.


Please, I remember hating grammar classes in high school... please don't make this a daily grammar lesson (unless you have observed that person teaching poor grammar to his or her students).

[mandu]

my grammer and spelling are not very good.and yes i do pretty much write how i talk
but i dont have to worry about grammer and spelling as an English teacher of kindergarten children

Im betting there are many mistakes in what i have just written ha ha ha

[Ariadne]

Ryleeys-

I don't think that English teachers should have to think about grammar 24-7, but I do think they should just plain KNOW some things without having to think much. Another poster mentioned their, there, and they're. I'll add to, too, and two. If folks write them incorrectly here on this forum, don't you think they just might be writing them incorrectly in class too?

Sure, we all make obvious typos and spell words incorrectly from time to time, but that isn't worrisome. The chronic errors upset me because they indicate that the writer really does not know the right way.

It makes me cringe everytime I see someone misspell the word incredible, but it bothers me even more when a poster uses there for their.

You are right though, I wouldn't dream of correcting a friend or colleague in person. Some folks on the forum seem to just beg for a flaming.

[yaco]

Well said, Rhonda G.

This forum would be more effective if teachers concentrated on helping each other, rather than nitpicking about grammatical errors or typos.

After all, most of us are teaching ' Oral English '.

Please do the following experiement ' Grammar Police '.

You will need 3 people

- 2 people have a 5 minute conversation.
- Person no 3, writes the conversation ' word for word '.

Then check how accurate your grammar is.

[No Moss]

With apologies to all and malice toward none, here is a thumbnail sketch of this thread to date.

It's the computer.--Myra G

I've given up all hope.--Old Dog

Since I've given up all hope, I feel much better.--No Moss

Tar and feather them all!--Norman Bethune

Clarity above all, especially if you're a scouser.--Chris_Crossley

Language is like dressing. Would you like Italian or French?--writpetition

Creativity above all.--lagerlout2006

I can do it when I concentrate.--ryleeys

Yes, but I can spell kindergarten.--mandu

I can add too and two, and I don't get for.--Ariadne

And a question for Yaco: Who's going to check the grammar?

Sorry, I couldn't afford to go anywhere this Spring Festival so I have way too much time on my hands. Happy New Year!

[Talkdoc]

I think a lot faster than I can type and, consequently, I do commit many typos and spelling errors when I write my first draft. I am a terrible speller: always have been, always will be. So I use a spellchecker. If you have only 26 seconds to post before your next class begins, maybe you should delay posting your reply until the end of the day � the thread will (most likely) still be here.

I have also forgotten a good deal of the finer points of grammar that I had learned in elementary school; when in doubt, I search the Internet for clarification (and I'm sure 'Old Dog' would be more than happy to accommodate any questions I might have, as he has already publicly offered to be of service).

I have a high tolerance level for spelling errors and a much lower one for basic grammatical errors. Typos I ignore altogether: although there is an edit button available to you after you post. Whether or not you are here to facilitate the practice of oral English or teach English-language songs to 6-year olds, if you cannot express yourself in written form correctly and effectively, you don't belong here at all from my perspective. Out of curiosity, if you were "teaching" back home instead of in China, how tolerant do you think any department chair would be of some of the gross and embarrassing errors in spelling and grammar we observe here everyday? These errors shouldn�t be okay in China simply because �this is China� and we shouldn�t throw all caution to the wind simply because �this is Dave�s ESL Caf�.� This is a public forum and it does represent to the rest of the world, albeit anonymously, who we are as foreign English teachers and communicators.

I agree we are here to provide support and information to each other; that is our primary purpose. But we are also posting to a forum that is viewed and read by many of our employers, FAOs and Chinese colleagues. They already think that most of us are little more than organ-grinder monkeys. Do we absolutely need to foster that perception?

Doc