Job Discussion Forums

[cafebleu]

What does everybody here think - reading a thread on how difficult or not the Japanese language is, I was interested to read of somebody`s friend`s experience. He was a teacher who was accused by his so called Japanese friend of `Stealing the Japanese language` because he could speak and write fairly fluently.

Do you find it usual to encounter racism (trivial or otherwise - some people don`t understand that racism can be about small petty things as well as broader human issues) against your being able to speak Japanese? After a few years here I find that people who are decent tend to play down or belittle my Japanese. I would not say they are being racist but then again, they are being insular and small minded. `Oh, do you speak Japanese?` I have found that the best way is to respond with, `Oh, do you speak English?` That really annoys them and then you tell them that for the same reason you do not appreciate this kind of talk.

However, I found it disturbing that a so called Japanese friend of a foreigner would make such a pig ignorant and racist comment as outlined in the first paragraph of this post. Does anybody have a similar story to tell? How about people such as Glenksi and Paul who are married to Japanese women? How have you been treated for your Japanese speaking ability?

Last point - our Japanese friends and acquaintances need to know that even if our Japanese isn`t so great、after a while here our listening ability is good. Each day I can understand a lot of what the Japanese are saying and although some of it is ignorant, I wouldn`t necessarily get too worked up about it. It`s mostly dumb kind of discussions or the rude `That gaijin ` type talk.

I would love to ask those people how they would feel if they went to my country and they kept hearing `That Jap` - excuse this term but there are more derogatory terms for the Japanese which I will not use here and I find `That gaijin` to be offensive, as in general gaijin as a general use word in Japanese society is, regardless of how fond the Japanese are of saying that word. The frequency does not make its usage non discriminatory and correct.

[Glenski]

cafebleu,
I missed that reference about stealing the Japanese language. Can you tell me what thread that was on?

I have never heard even the slightest related comment like that. How can one steal another person's language? You use it, whether badly or fairly well or extremely well. Just my opinion until I can read that other post.

As for me, no one has ever raised the question "Oh, do you speak Japanese?" as if they were surprised that I do (even if only fairly well). In fact, I have had the opposite reaction from people. They actually expect me to speak it. I am referring to supermarkets, government offices, taxis, hotel lobbies, etc. And, I accept that initial line of thinking because, after all, I'm living in Japan. When I have trouble understanding people, that's when the trouble arises, but there is no racism involved. It's my problem, not that of the others, that I can't speak or understand Japanese perfectly.

When I do use it, I am in the following situations:
with my wife's family
with my high school co-workers
out and about in the general public (as mentioned in the above examples)

With my in-laws and other relatives, they are always polite to listen to me, and early in our relationship, it was a little disconcerting to suddenly have a room of 15 people clam up when I spoke. It was a novelty for them, and my wife has told me that I am the first foreigner they have had contact with. They welcome any attempt of mine to speak Japanese, and when they can't understand me, all eyes shift to my wife for translation. I have become more fluent, and she has chosen not to help me as often, so this doesn't happen as much. Still, I usually sit in the crowd reasonably quiet until someone begins with a question or two, usually after the first round of beer. Her parents ramble on with zero English coming from their lips and no attempt to slow down or alter their own Japanese.

At work, most people try their English first. Meetings are conducted exclusively in Japanese, and when/if I speak, they actually urge me to use English only because they know my Japanese isn't quite up to par to converse with the jargon needed. No racism feelings of any kind there. I mix English with Japanese anyway. And, my vice-principal constantly begins his conversations with me with the following query, "May I use Japanese?" He has even commented on the improvement in mine. My section boss and I switch between both languages, but he is extremely weak in English, so Japanese dominates. He has been nice enough to correct my mistakes occasionally, and I wish more people would do that. (For what it's worth, none of the other foreigners who speak Japanese, some better than me, have had any of the notions mentioned in that other post, cafebleu. In fact, people treat it as a matter of fact that they actually can speak, without batting an eye.

As for public places, the only negative feelings I get are in restaurants when I'm with anyone Japanese. Waitresses almost always go to the Japanese person to request my order. No racist feelings there; just a sense of efficiency in getting the order. If I can order myself, I do it, and the waitress pays more attention to me. In all other public situations, the only negative feelings I get are those of confusion or frustration at the lack of complete communication, but those are totally understandable.

[PAULH]

Cafebleu

I have never really had any problems or negative comments (see my post on learning Japanese about attitudes to white people and 'Asian people speaking japanese) except in the beginning when I got a lot of Nihongo joozu desu ne" thrown my way. I still get the odd person say that but I quietly think "after 15 years here, Japanese English speaking wife and Level 2 of JLPT etc I should b......dy think so" but I dont say anything. I have a job I do that requires public speaking in front of large numbers of people in Japanese and judging from the expressions on their faces it ranges from surprise to shock to admiration. I think once people know you can speak some Japanese the barriers come down, people feel more relaxed to tal to you rather than feel apprehension that they may have to speak English, or you may speak English to them.

My wifes family do not speak any English so Japanese was all there was- they accepted me as I was and even if my Japanese was lousy in the beginning they put up with it and they have always used normal Japanese with me (including her aunts and uncles and cousins). Nowadays at a junior colege I am at I will sometimes hide my Japanese ability (or not let on how much i DO know). Students know I speak some, but not how much, and I think they appreciate it that they can communicate with the teacher in Japanese one-on-one. They don't EXPECT me to know Japanese, but are grateful that its there when its needed. they are a little surprised when they learn I can understand what they are saying to each other in Japanese when they have a problem- just like it was mentioned before in another post, dont criticise Japan or Japanese people or culture in English because you dont know who is listening of who may understand you.

[Lucy Snow]

I was the one who posted the original "stealing the culture" incident.

I should mention that we were living in Ibaraki-ken, in a city that was considered even by the Japanese to be very, very conservative. What happened to our friend was an isolated incident,but it highlighted other problems we encountered while living there.

For example, my husband, whose Japanese is quite good, was several times told by shop clerks that "they didn't understand English." The trouble was, he was speaking Japanese! After a while, his response would be, "Do you speak Japanese? Is there anyone in the shop who does?" I think that it's really difficult for some people to reconcile the fact that a blue-eyed, blonde foreigner can speak Japanese.

There was a orientation meeting for inoming freshman in the English Department. One of the Japanese professors gave a long speech to the students about how there were too many foreigners in the English Lit. Department, how it was ruining the educational system to have all these gaijin teaching at Japanese universities. My husband remarked to another teacher on his way out (in Japanese) that he felt pretty uncomfortable during that speech. The teacher's response? "Oh--you understood him?" My husband only spoke Japanese to that teacher, and to the teacher who gave the anti-foreigner speech. Why would either of them think that he couldn't understand what was said?

But getting back to the culture question. I'm still not sure what our friend's colleague meant by the "stealing their culture" comment. It could be that the colleague was just a redneck. Or it could be jealousy--the colleague was an "English" teacher who couldn't speak English. (I know, I met the guy.) He could be someone who has a lot of emotional investment in the idea that Japanese is so difficult to learn, that foreigners can never learn to speak it properly.

Overall, though, the people that we knew in Ibaraki-ken were quite pleased that we spoke Japanese (or that my husband did at least--I was pretty hopeless).

[Nagoyaguy]

As another old married fogey, I agree. With my wife and son at home, it is 90 percent English. With her family, it is all Japanese. Great people, but they don't speak English at all. They got used to me fast and just act like themselves when we meet and eat.

The thing that really gripes my cookies is the attitude of those in the service industry. Waiters, waitresses, sales people, etc. I am an old fashioned guy, I do the talking when we enter a restaurant. I say to the hostess, "table for 3, non smoking" in Japanese, and they look PAST or THROUGH (I am pretty big) me to my wife in confusion. She plays along, just ask them, "What, didn't you hear him?". Same if I order my own food. The confused look the plea to the Japanese person at the table for clarification.

For sales people, the same. I went to buy glasses last month. Asked a question to the sales guy, he answered to my wife! I asked another question, he again addressed her with the answer. Finally, I made eye contact and told him, "Look, I am the one talking. Please answer ME." Poor guy nearly shat himself.

The shibboleth of "Japanese is difficult" is one that a lot of people are reluctant to surrender. Although it seems that, to many Japanese, learning ANY language is a difficult endeavour. As I tell them, English is easy. Lots of seriously stupid people can speak English. Why not you?

[Lynn]

I always have to watch my step when speaking Japanese to Japanese people in New York. For the most part, I never do. There is a lot of pride and saving face involved with Japanese, unlike Spanish. I speak very little Spanish. I once said a simple sentence to my students. My Spanish speaking students' attitudes were so different than the Japanese.

With Japanese students they almost always seemed disappointed that they got a teacher who has lived in Japan and can speak Japanese. After 8 months of friendship, I still never spoke Japanese to one friend,(even though she knew I could speak) but one time I wanted to tell her what my boyfriend said. He is Japanese and she knows it, so I just directly quoted him because what he said was so funny and it would have got lost in the translation.

However, when I told her what he said, she didn't laugh. She had such a sad look on her face and said, "Your Japanese is so good". Apparently, she felt bad that her English wasn't as good even though she had been studying so hard and for most of her life. I felt really uncomfortable.

Just a few days ago her cousin came in from Japan. She could not speak English, at all but was very eager to speak to a real American. So, I had to sit there and smile while she looked up things in her phrase book. My friend then translated. She said, "I know you speak Japanese, but I just want to try". I knew it would have been really rude to just start speaking Japanese to the cousin, so I just had to grin and bear it.

I wouldn't have this situation with my Spanish speaking students. None of my American co-workers understand why I don't speak Japanese with my students. My co-workers who have done study abroad in Mexico or Spain love speaking Spanish outside the classroom, and the students love it, too. I just can't explain why I can't do it with the Japanese.


edited: "your" instead of "you're".

[Nagoyaguy]

The reason is simple. Japanese people generally have an iron rod up their collective butts about a yard wide about their mythical language. If you "break the code", you stop being a 'gaijin friend' and actually may have to be treated like a real friend. Not too many Japanese want this. They are happy with us in our little box with glass walls.

People like the girl you mentioned aren't really your friend. If you can't just relax together and enjoy each other's company without all this stress about who speaks what language, then you are wasting your time. She sounds dangerously close to the "language leech" category. A true friend would applaud your efforts and compliment you on your ability. Not get all grumpy and jealous.

It has nothing to do with pride, and everything to do with insecurity. What does pride have to do with the difficulty of learning or speaking a language? I usually tell people here that Japanese is pretty easy to learn. They can't believe it. Yet another example of how Japan is a third world country with first world technology. Rice farmers with a cell phone and one foot still planted in the paddy.

[PAULH]

Nagoyaguy

Touche.

I have a nine year old daughter who is bilingual since the age of five, a four year old who has been speaking Japanese since the day he could walk, but still can not write katakana and is now starting to say Englsih words can count to twenty in English and knows the names of most zoo animals. He has never been questioned or complimented by his Japanese kindy teachers about his Japanese ability, even though he has reddish brown hair, looks foreign etc, was born in Japan and apart from his looks is as 'Japanese' as everybody else here.

If a four year old can become fluent in the language, I really dont see how its impossible for an adult to learn how to speak a few phrases, unless as you are aware they have a massive sense of insecurity or they have told them selves its not possible.

FWIW In my junior college class I will usually tell my students that when they go to America on homestay there won't be sensei or their dictionary or friends to cling onto, that they must LEARN to survive in English. For this reason I avoid using Japanese in class, or use it sparingly, even though i am almost fluent in the language.

I told my nephew going to New Zealand to avoid Japanese student cliques, get a non-Japanese speaking room mate and avoid speaking only with other Japanese. I can understand the above lady's position, but the Japanese girl does not spend 6 years at high school, four years at university studying english, save up for a plane fare and expenses to fly to New York, just so she can speak Japanese with an American girl. If she wanted to speak Japanese she may as well stay home.

[Lynn]

[Nagoyaguy]

Paul;

I know what you mean. My son is 7 and looks pretty much like me and not his mother (poor little guy). But him speaking both English and Japanglish is not a big deal to me. A lot of people here are freaked by the fact that he can actually speak English. Since he was born in Toronto and lived there until he was nearly 4, it really isn't surprising!

I don't get it. Why do Japanese people spend so much money trying to attain something that, by their own admission and action, is impossible to achieve? If English is so damn difficult, give it up! Learn basket weaving or take a course in great art appreciation. Just lay off the "muzukashii" bit. It's getting annoying.

[Lucy Snow]

Paul wrote:

[Lynn]

[Nagoyaguy]

Lynn, those people are pathetic. Of course they came to the states to learn English, but so what? That has nothing to do with friendship or socializing.

You should feel NO obligation to be their training dummy. Speak Japanese if you feel like, its a free country right? It is so obvious they are and were using you for free practice. They see you as a walking dictionary, not a friend.

Most people would be absolutely thrilled if you tried to speak their language with them. It is a sign of respect for their culture. Obviously, they have NO respect for you.

Your 35 year old single friend has some issues of her own to deal with. Probably pressure from her family to get married, get serious about life, get a career, instead of swanning around studying English like a college student.

[Lucy Snow]

Lynn, I had sort of the same thing happen when I was living in Japan. I was teaching a class of seriously mentally-unbalanced housewives, and one of them would ask me to her home for lunch after the lessons.

She felt it was her "duty" to introduce me to Japanese food--never mind the fact that I had lived in Japan over four years when I started teaching the class. One day she made okonomiyaki, and I said, "Oh, that's one of my favorite dishes." There was a look of profound disappointment on her face when she said, "But I was hoping that these was something new for you." I tried explaining to her that after living in Japan for that long, of course I would have tried something like okonomiyaki, but she had the idea in her head that I needed her as a guide through Japanese culture.

I found out later (after I quit teaching the class) that this particular woman liked to have her "pet gaijin" and introduce them to Japanese culture. The Japan that she wanted foreigners to know about was the country of tea ceremony, ikebana and kibuki and noh. When I told her that I felt I learned more about Japanese culture singing karaoke for a coupole of hours with a group of OL's, she was pretty offended.

[Vince]

Most people are decent and will speak to me in Japanese. I sometimes get the pause, but I think my "hey, you knocked on my door, what the hell do you want?" look gets them over the hurdle. In public, I think my general look of confidence clues most people in.

I've had a few leeches though, and also people who just couldn't get it in their head that I'd ever learn anything about Japan. I was once at a cherry blossom picnic with a bunch of students. One student said something interesting to another in Japanese, and I reflexively cut in with "so desu ne." One of them got really angry about it. I understand that most school parties are really about saabisu English, but how much harm would it cause for a foreigner to blurt out a simple phrase of agreement? I apparently violated a more basic assumption. I've had a few such incidents. Like Nagoyaguy said, some people are obviously clinging to the insular rice paddy mentality.