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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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 Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 3:00 am Post subject: the problem with the z |
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There is a real "information" problem, as I see it, with the Z Visa and I would like to ask some questions to clear up my misunderstandings.
It is the opinion of many (talkdoc, roger), no one and I mean no one should come to China without a Z visa. That is the law as they understand it. The culture on the other hand deals with the problems created by the written word of the law by "envoking special circumstances" to change the "L" to the highly sought after "Z", after the arrival of the Foreign Teacher. Maybe the school wants to get a good look at the Foreigner before putting a lot of money into the z visa.
Granted, everyone should know what the laws are governing a locale before even going there, but is anyone ever sure (they are legal and safe) in comming to China or anywhere to teach. The redtape involved with getting a z visa in the US is a lot of trouble and I would think that if many teachers tried to go about things in the right way, few would make it through the process. Even some of the major Universities I have worked at have teachers working on L and F visa. They paid their tax each month had no problems with the local police or with tax collectors and continued on to Shanghai or Beijng where they still teach today on the same visas and seem to be happy not to be tied to the z visa with its work regulated limits. I know at this point several will continue to say this is wrong and no Foreign Teacher should be doing this and I would agree tha no teacher should be doing this but even so, if no foreing teacher were to break these rules, how many foreign teachers would there be in China.
And by the way, I am not advocating working without a z, but to tell the truth, if my coming over was dependent on the z, I never would have come. |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 4:03 am Post subject: |
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Well, the whole of China is an ongoing works in progress. And where people work there are other people that take decisions. The decision makers in China prefer to lord it over the common folks without accepting to be answerable to them. In other words: it is a society of pliant, meek subjects under the dictatorship of a self-appointed elite. The elite likes to work in an ad-hoc manner. They won't even sign their decrees; their words of mouth are all that matter.
Thus, my suggestion is, and I know it is an unpractical one for the majority but it worked wonders in my case! - come over as a TOURIST WITHOUT THE INTENTION OF FINDING EMPLOYMENT RIGHT AWAY, get the feel of the place, negotiate with a number of would-be bosses and sign on when all fits into your business plan.
My philosophy is: you must be able to extricate from any trap on your own; you mustn't rely on legal or other powers in such an alien culture.
I toured China for well over one year and 4 months and accumulated a lot of ugly insights; China had become a sort of Wild East where men with power lorded it over the powerless, breaking any law that was in their way. Yet I signed on and have remained here ever since.
Of course, my approach requires a certain robust financial basis. However, I have never known a year in all my adult life when life and all the creature comforts I needed were totally assured. It does take a little foresight even in these days of credit cards, Western Union and SWIFT transfers, and that means you have to work at home first and earn enough dough to finance your relocation to a third-world jurisdiction. |
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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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| Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| evaforsure wrote: |
| The redtape involved with getting a z visa in the US is a lot of trouble and I would think that if many teachers tried to go about things in the right way, few would make it through the process. |
I can't speak to what the process is like in other countries but in America, once you receive the proper paperwork from your prospective employer, there is no more hassle or "red tape" involved in obtaining the Z-Visa than there is for the obtaining the L- or F-Visas. I mailed my fee and passport, along with the official documents, to a Visa service which in turn personally took the documents over to the Chinese embassy, as a proxy, and within five days my passport was returned to me, overnight delivery, with the attached Z-Visa. Whatever additional hassles might be involved with obtaining the Z-Visa are entirely borne by the employer, not the employee (at least in America). So, at least as the process is handled in the states, there is no real excuse for not coming here legally and with the protection of having an actual sponsor who is legally responsible for you once you set foot in China.
I think one of the reasons these discussions become, invariably, so contentious is because the question of Visas necessarily impinges upon other closely related issues involving legitimacy and "who should teach in China" and under what circumstances (degrees, experience, etc.). I can tell you that no government university is going to employ a teacher on an F-Visa, which is to say, no government university is going to employ a teacher who does not meet the SAFEA requirements for a foreign expert. If private universities are, in fact, hiring teachers without Z-Visas, I'd be willing to bet they are doing so because those teachers are not in possession of a real degree and the school's need to fill job openings superceded their adherence to the requirements. As we all know, in China, necessity almost always trumps legality (when the two are in direct conflict).
I had a long talk the other day with my assistant dean about foreign teaching requirements at the university. They are anticipating enforcement of regulations from Beijing which would require a master's degree to teach at the university level and consequently, that is currently their preference. In addition, they won't hire anyone without either high school or university teaching experience as they believe (correctly so) that teaching experience with children does not always port over very well into working with (young) adult students.
Personally, I believe the requirements for foreign expert are markedly superfluous, given our current utilization, for working with children in China. I've said it before and I'll say it again; one does not need a degree in order to practice oral English, especially with children. However, and although a degree may not be necessary to adequately and functionally fulfill the current job requirements when working with adults, I (like my dean) do strongly advocate for adherence to the minimum requirements for those teachers hired to work in secondary schools and universities. And here's why: Although a university degree (4-, 6- or 8-year) does not necessarily guarantee that someone can teach (as has been pointed out so many times before in defense), the systematic acquisition of knowledge and ability to think critically - that are developed from and honed by these educational experiences - do, undeniably, inform the teaching process and method and clearly enrich the overall quality: even in the context of oral English teaching. Whereas the application and usefulness of those assets may be far too suppressed in the case of working with children (especially very young ones, as oral English practice teachers only, that is) to be of any real consequence, young and other adults deserve no less: being entertaining, charming and personable should not be considered sufficient conditions (although they are necessary ones) in that context.
If you are a high school graduate, already in China, teaching children at a private English language school (either one not authorized to hire foreign experts or one that, for whatever reason, did not forge a degree for you) and you are successfully working here with an F-Visa, God bless you - I am both happy and relieved that everything worked out so well for you: genuinely.
My objection to this common practice, in regard to these forum discussions, is a very limited one in scope; I am vehemently opposed to encouraging other unqualified and young prospective teachers to move to China on just a wing and a prayer (and I am not addressing myself to anyone in particular right now). There are simply too many unhappy stories of unqualified people who are lured into China by unscrupulous schools and recruiters with a promise for a job, only to find out (once they have arrived), that they have no job, no money and no means to get back home. Roger has often referred to many who then have no choice but to hope for and live upon the charity and kindness of other foreign teachers. I would never want to see my child placed in that situation and, consequently, I am personally distressed when I perceive anyone here (no matter how well-intentioned) dispensing advice that might encourage, unwittingly participate in, or facilitate the occurrence of that highly unfortunate and dreadful experience. That was and still is the entire basis of my objection to and essential point regarding moving to China, with the intention of teaching, on an F-Visa. How anyone can castigate this sincere and heartfelt concern as being �supercilious,� �elitist,� and �hypocritical� is entirely beyond me.
My best advice is this (in the interest of the welfare of others): If you want to move to China to teach, please do so only with a Z-Visa. If you are a college graduate, there is absolutely no reason not to. And, if you are not, find a private English language school that will forge a degree for you and is willing to sponsor you and bring you over here on a Z-Visa (there are many that will; I worked for one. I do not condone this practice but I do acknowledge it as a reality - and, perhaps, even as a necessity - in China). If you choose to ignore this advice (and allow schools, recruiters and others to lure you into China on the basis of an F-Visa), be mentally prepared to expect the worst and make certain (as Roger just said) that you come with plenty of money; there is a reasonable chance you will need it. (In the alternative, ask the school, recruiter or other forum member, encouraging you to move to China to work on an F-Visa, if they would be willing to post a 20,000 RMB security bond with a private attorney in your destination city. That should be enough to support you for at least two months or until you find another job and for the flight back home in the event you don't - in that "rare" likelihood that this highly promising and really good-sounding job - for some strange and unforeseen reason - doesn't materialize for you. If they are not willing to gamble that the job will be there for you when you arrive, neither should you.)
Doc |
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struelle
Joined: 16 May 2003
Posts: 2372
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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I'd argue in favor of coming over on an L-visa, and scouting around first before making a decision. There are a few problems with getting a Z first:
- you have to do a health check-up first in your home country, and then repeat the same thing in China
- you need an invitation letter from your employer faxed over, and other details (contract, approval of registration, etc.)
- both parties make a committment without 'dating' first, so to speak.
I think the past point is pertinent, and probably explains why the L --> Z method is a WIN WIN situation. Not only do you benefit by getting familiar with the culture and business situations before signing on, the employer also benefits by evaluating you first, and interviewing you ON THEIR TURF.
I'm not an expert on Chinese culture, but I've learned well enough that people don't like doing business with strangers - they want to get to know you first. An employer would be wary of hiring somebody through the net, or only using a resume as a basis.
Recruiters supposedly fill this gap, but the original problem still remains: how do the two primary parties get to know each other first if the employee is hired outside of the country?!
Steve |
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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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| Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| struelle wrote: |
| I'd argue in favor of coming over on an L-visa, and scouting around first before making a decision. |
Steve - Although what you (and Roger) suggest is ideal, very few foreign teachers have the financial means to do it that way. The vast majority come to China with just a few dollars in their pockets and really do need to start working upon arrival. For them, coming to China with anything other than a Z-Visa poses a risk.
Regarding the medical exam, I was not required to have one first in the states. Shortly after I arrived, I was escorted through a public facility which performed all the tests required for completion of the Foreign Expert Physical Exam form.
Doc |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:30 am Post subject: |
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I came to China with a z visa and arranged everything myself and it was not an easy task. The Chinese SF Embassy did require me to have a medical at the time of application and also I had to have it signed and sealed by a Notery and then had to have the Notery authorized by the State of Washington. The State of Wahington paid for all of this but if I had to dig deep to pay for this check up and form certification...
I also found Visa services to be expensive and I rekon that many teachers that need to hit the gound running (as to making income) cannot or would not spend the money to afford this kind of service...now I understand as of a few months ago that you have to walk you visa request into the actually Embassy bldg. and that applicants can no longer send paperwork in in the mail. (This information may no longer be valid as the policy has changed again from January 1, but not sure how).
Although what you suggest is ideal, very few foreign teachers have the financial means to go through visa services as these services are usually used by travlers .
I agree that the z visa is the way to go..but I do not think that it is as easy as a L or F to procure.
Also I can understand the schools reluctance to isssue the letters and go through the work when Foreign Teachers are known for their "flaky" behavior when it comes to accepting jobs. An owner of a school told me yesterday that he had submitted letters for two teachers who had signed contract and had accepted the job in North China. He explaned that there was a two month window in the hiring process and if anything went wrong that there was'nt enough time to prepare additional letters. At the last moment the two teachers decided to stay in Thailand. Now he has to work quickly to get twom more teachers. As he explanes it, the classrooms are already filled and the success of this venture depends on him getting a FT to stand in the front. At this point any FT...BA or not..he doesnt care at this point. Although these are the owners problems and not the FTs, the method of supplying teachers will change as economics demands. There are PSB members who go around checking on school to insure that they have only licenced and permited teachers in their schools. IS the goal enforcement...no as I have seen...more like when they find teachers working under the L or F..they demand a payout..from the school or the school will have to work through an agent or a school conected with his branch of the PSB and in the end (everybody gets the z and the PSB gets the money).we all work for him.
Rmember there are many ways of doing things in China and we would all like to think that if we do it the right way we are protected and this is not true. Even if you follow all the rules there is a big chance that sometime in your China experience, you will experience visa problems of some sort. THe key factor is alomost anything can be worked out in China.. |
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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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| Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:41 am Post subject: |
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Guys - Irrespective of what type of Visa you are seeking, it has to be obtained from the Chinese embassy/consulate: yes? If you don't live close to the consulate, you have to use a service (or travel yourself) regardless of what type of Visa you are applying for.
If you use your favorite search engine and search on "Visa Service" and "Z-Visa," you will find a long list of such services. The processing (handling) fee is the same regardless of Visa type. I paid 50 dollars for the Consular Fee (Z-Visa) and an additional 45 dollars for the 5-day processing fee (which is the same for the single-entry F-Visa). Add to that an additional 19 dollars for overnight return delivery. These fees cannot be avoided or reduced by switching to an L- or F-Visa and a medical exam form was not required.
Here is the website of the service that I used (VisaRite): http://www.visarite.com/chinavisa/China_work_visa.htm
Obtaining a Z-Visa is no more difficult, involved, complex or expensive than obtaining an L- or an F-Visa (not from our end).
Doc |
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tofuman
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
Posts: 937
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| Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:25 am Post subject: |
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Talkdoc�s experience was nearly identical to mine. I received a brief physical in China and had a "Z" visa before arriving. There was no hassle associated with obtaining a "Z" visa. When your school sends you the proper paper work, take it to the embassy and get the correct (Z) visa.
I suspect that many schools are not authorized to provide the necessary documentation to secure "Z" visas. These schools are the source of most of the horror stories, rip offs, swindles, and bad experiences that people posting on this board have; but not always. I work for a government school that tries very hard to follow the law regarding FTs in certain respects. At the same time, they do not mind violating parts of the contract when it is in their own interests.
I have been paid promptly and not overworked.
People in a position that makes them dependent upon their job in China are really asking for abuse. The only thing that enables me to stay is the options that I have. I�m recreating on palm-lined beaches during the New Year holiday, far from China. I have options when I go back as well.
But I took the same approach to work in the USA. |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| I have had PMs from more than a few peple that have informed me that they think that the F visa is suited to their purpose of travel or just in the sprit of indivual freedom of not being tied to the z. They are not willing to come out on the forem because of the "beating" that they expect to get at the hands of posters that have psoted the most frequest about this subject. I would ask all to feel free to post your ideas here on Dave's regardless of the attitude of others and the method in which they present their opinions and also the way they reject yours. Many people have traveled many borders and the most recent postings are but a small drop in the bucket of Chinese experience. Please feel free to express yourself. |
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struelle
Joined: 16 May 2003
Posts: 2372
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Steve - Although what you (and Roger) suggest is ideal, very few foreign teachers have the financial means to do it that way. The vast majority come to China with just a few dollars in their pockets and really do need to start working upon arrival. |
If this is true, it sounds rather foolish, don't you think? How many times have we read panic posts here by teachers who've arrived on little reserve funds, encoutered some trap, and then begged for extra money?
Working right away is fine, but if the teacher depends on that as the only source of income, it presents a problem. I always stress the importance of carrying reserve cash.
If it's difficult to locate an Embassy for visa processing, one strategy is to fly to another Asian country (like Thailand), and apply for the visa over there.
Steve |
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no_exit
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 565
Location: Kunming
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| Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| I also had the exact same experience as talkdoc. I got my Z visa in the states without getting a medical exam. My school here in China sent the paperwork (via express mail actually, not fax), I sent the paperwork and application to a visa processing service, and my passport was returned quickly with the Z visa inside. I got a medical check in China once I arrived in order for my residence permit to be issued. It didn't involve any red tape or hassle, certainly much less than changing my current F visa to a Z visa while still in China is now proving to be (as I mentioned in another thread, new regulations are now requiring us to leave the country in order to make this switch). |
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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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| Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| evaforsure wrote: |
| I have had PMs from more than a few peple that have informed me that they think that the F visa is suited to their purpose of travel or just in the sprit of indivual freedom of not being tied to the z. They are not willing to come out on the forem because of the "beating" that they expect to get at the hands of posters that have psoted the most frequest about this subject. |
Eva, feeling apprehensive about publicly posting an opinion that can't be adequately defended or justified speaks to very good reality testing. From a mental health perspective anyway, I wouldn't be so quick to attempt to assuage it in others.
But, in the name of fairness, equal access and opportunity (after all, I am an American), please allow me to summarize my understanding of all the wonderfully strong points for coming to China with an L- and F-Visa that have been set forth thus far in this (and other) threads on the topic (and please feel free to add to this list, if I inadvertently leave anything out).
Good Reasons for Coming to Teach in China on an L- or F-Visa
Z-Visas are too expensive, too difficult, too annoying and just too damn confusing to be troubled with. L- and F-Visas are simpler and much easier to get.
For those with thousands of dollars in savings, L- and F-Visas give you much more freedom of movement and choice once you arrive in China. You are free to travel about for weeks and even months at a time, biding your time, taking in the sights, meeting different people, interviewing at will - getting a "feel" for the place and its people before you finally choose that lucky winner. Some might be tempted to argue that investing a mininum of two to three thousand dollars on a tour, including plane fare, predominantly in search of a job that pays an average of $480.00 to $600.00 per month (if it ever materializes and if you ever get paid), is not particularly cost effective or shrewd but we would expect that argument mostly from our American friends who, sadly but true, are not as culturally sophisticated as the rest of us.
L- and F-Visas actually provide you with a far greater selection of employers from which to choose (than Z-Visas do) as there is an abundance of fly-by-night and other types of floundering and unscrupulous schools that are not authorized and licensed by the government to hire foreign experts - why limit yourself to just licensed, well-established schools? That's a little foolish, don't you think?
L- and F-Visas are tailor-made for high school graduates and those with no prior teaching experience. Why go through the trouble and expense of paying for a fake degree when you can work for an unlicensed school with an F-Visa??? And although it's true that many licensed schools will forge a college degree for you, some people might feel a little strange about committing fraud. Besides, this is common practice here and most people do it without any trouble whatsoever. After all, how many illegal aliens are there successfully working in the United States? Paleeze.
F-Visas give you much more independence (to be you) and don't tie you down to any one particular employer (don't ask me to explain this one, just take my anonymous word for it). F-Visas, especially in Shanghai, are also a big advantage (it's something I just know to be true in my heart and soul; don't forget, I am a Sagittarius born on the cusp during a leap year). Finally, and let's face it, working in China on an F-Visa is just a lot cooler than doing so with that stuffy-old Z-Visa thingy. Get down. Get funky. Word!
Finally, anything is possible in China and most things do work out in the end if you are just patient and don't panic. Those on this forum (like Talkcrock) who insist that the Z-Visa is "only way to do it" are typically anal-retentive, unimaginative, elitist and just plain arrogant (no wonder he�s been divorced twice � poor girls).  And as for "that is the only legal way to do it," well just talk about hypocrisy! (Like he doesn't own pirated DVDs: yeah... right. And those so-called two-hour (cough, cough) Thai massages of his; don't make me laugh. And I bet he jay-walks too and drives without a valid driver's license and does all sorts of other illegal and nefarious things that suit him when he so chooses: the Mr. smarty-pants that he is, thinking that he sits way up above everyone else on that high horse of his.)
So girls, how did I do? Did I leave anything out?
By all means and please, if you feel coming to teach in China on anything other than a Z-Visa is the best way to go, please, don't let common sense, the truth, prudence, safety and welfare, reality-testing, legalities and, most of all, QuackDoc stop you from sharing your opinions about this matter. Prospective teachers in search of valid and reliable information about working in China will benefit enormously from as many divergent and unsubstantiated personal preferences and opinions as we can possibly muster. After all, this is China; reliable and valid information here are rare commodities (so teachers might as well get used to it before they come)!
Doc
Last edited by Talkdoc on Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:02 pm; edited 5 times in total |
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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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| Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| Tofuman wrote: |
| Talkdoc�s experience was nearly identical to mine. I received a brief physical in China and had a "Z" visa before arriving. There was no hassle associated with obtaining a "Z" visa. |
| no_exit wrote: |
| I also had the exact same experience as talkdoc. I got my Z visa in the states without getting a medical exam. My school here in China sent the paperwork (via express mail actually, not fax), I sent the paperwork and application to a visa processing service, and my passport was returned quickly with the Z visa inside. I got a medical check in China once I arrived in order for my residence permit to be issued. It didn't involve any red tape or hassle, certainly much less than changing my current F visa to a Z visa while still in China is now proving to be (as I mentioned in another thread, new regulations are now requiring us to leave the country in order to make this switch). |
Now you've gone too far guys! Who do you think you are to interject reality into this discussion??? Get off your high horses my friends!
You are obviously not looking at this the right way. By effortlessly applying for the Z-Visa and entering this country to teach legally, don't you realize that you limited yourself to only working for a school authorized and licensed by the government to hire foreign teachers? Aren't you guys clever or adventurous enough to appreciate all the unlicensed, unscrupulous and high-paying (if you get it, that is) schools you necessarily (and unfairly) eliminated from your consideration?
Working in China with a Z-Visa is for degreed wimps and losers only. Any idiot can handle the usual sets of lies, deceptions and other difficulties, that we all face as foreign teachers, when working here legally. But, it's the strongest among us, the most adventurous, the most clever, the brightest and the most adaptive (usually not Americans), who can handle these problems and survive them while working here illegally! (Besides, its common practice and most people do it without any problems.)
And, no_exit, instead of perceiving the transfer of the F- to a Z-Visa as a big hassle and a terrible waste of your time and money, think of it as an opportunity to explore other countries, such as Thailand: as a way of broadening your horizons and your appreciation of this big wide world of ours.
I guess some of us need to learn to think outside of the box. China's a big country you know - with endless possibilities.
But the truth of the matter is, some people here are just too arrogant and too close-minded to reach and deal with on this forum, so I probably shouldn't waste my time and energy.
Doc |
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Voldermort
Joined: 14 Apr 2004
Posts: 597
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| Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| no_exit wrote: |
| I also had the exact same experience as talkdoc. I got my Z visa in the states without getting a medical exam. My school here in China sent the paperwork (via express mail actually, not fax), I sent the paperwork and application to a visa processing service, and my passport was returned quickly with the Z visa inside. I got a medical check in China once I arrived in order for my residence permit to be issued. It didn't involve any red tape or hassle, certainly much less than changing my current F visa to a Z visa while still in China is now proving to be (as I mentioned in another thread, new regulations are now requiring us to leave the country in order to make this switch). |
I am working on a F-visa (for those in powerful positions reading this forum you can find my address on my profile.)
Do you realise that you are asking us to openly admit to the whole Chinese world that we are breaking Chinese laws? It is illegal to teach on a F-visa, but accepted. It is not to be encouraged, enforced or broadcasted. Keep the damn thing to yourself!! |
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mandu
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 794
Location: china
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:57 am Post subject: |
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i had a Z visa for 3 years one at my 1st kindy job and my 2nd z visa was at my 2nd kindy job.the kindy paid my z visa and it was good to have as i was at my 2nd job for 2 years.
when i left i went to work for a new kindergarten,i got none of the western teachers had Z visa they are all on buisness visas,so off i went to hongkong got my buisness visa.my 1st year no problems,i will be starting my 2nd year at this kindy i have been offerd more money.i asked about getting a work visa.the boss who owns all the kindergartens said we dont put any western teachers on work visas her reason was so the western teachers dont get taxed.
i said what happens if i get into trouble,she said dont worry i have plenty of money and i know alot of people and will help you out if anything happens.i work in shenzhen im now in my 5th year and never had any problems when it comes to visas.
at this kindergarten i have just been offerd a one year contract and 11000 a month.the boss owns 10 kindergartens in shenzhen.so she prob has a bit of power.
having a business visa gives you the freedom to do what you want in china if you are not happy with your place of work you can just leave.if you have a z visa your pretty much tied down to the school or kindy.its alot more difficult to leave i would think.
although on the other hand its good to feel safe and have the right kind of visa. |
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