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Mark Beckman
Joined: 25 Nov 2004
Posts: 126
Location: 200kms East of Chengdu
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 Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:22 pm Post subject: Any info on this ?? |
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Hi Guys
I am new at this game so feel free to treat me like a complete idiot 
I have a couple of good job offers from China but there is one from Taiwan that keeps getting my attention and was looking for opinions on it, also opinions on Taiwan (Kaohsiung) for my Wife (teacher) and Daughter (14)
The money seems way better (twice) than China or based on cost of living is this merely an illusion ?
Andy Wong from Global International Cultural & Educational Development says....
Hello,
I view your resume and it look like you�re interested of teaching English in Taiwan. You have made a good decision! The market for native English speakers here is essentially just burgeoning- the full potential is far from realized.
My name is Andy, and I�m a Canadian who teaches part time at a kindergarten (ages from 3 to 11) in Kaohsiung, Taiwan�s second largest city. Kaohsiung is a fantastic city, large in size and very diverse, but laid back in attitude. In addition to teaching, I am also the director of recruitment for Global International Cultural and Educational Development, a division of Global TESOL College, representing Southern Taiwan. Basically, I am the English contact in charge of connecting potential teachers and the schools looking to hire them. Understand that I am not an agent; I work on direct behalf of the schools that need teachers, and I am their exclusive source, so when you are hired, you get paid directly by the schools- there is no �middleman�. The wages here are more than satisfactory- starting at 500-600 NT per hour, dependent upon experience- with somewhere between 20-25 hours per week; especially when you take into consideration the fact that the cost of living is substantially low, you can live well and save money. And there is always the option of picking up more work, usually through private tutoring sessions.
Most of the positions I can offer you are in Kaohsiung, teaching young children whose English levels vary, though there are some in other cities in Southern Taiwan- Pingtung or Tainan, for instance. Southern Taiwan is a beautiful area, with plentiful beaches and national parks that present a multitude of recreational options: surfing, hiking, and snorkeling/scuba diving among others. Kaohsiung has a population of approximately 1.5 million, with about 2500 foreign English teachers. Like Taipei, it is a very international city, but unlike Taipei, it is much cleaner, the people are friendlier, and everything is considerably cheaper.
What I can offer to you a direct connection with the schools, of which you will have the choice; that is, you decide which school you want to teach in, after you have seen a few different schools in person and met face to face with the owner and/or director. You will not sign a contract until you come here and make your decision. The length of all the contracts is one year.
There are two primary requirements: firstly, a college or university (4 year) diploma- your major does not matter: it can be a B.A. or a B.S. or even a B.F.A or Tesol Certification. Secondly, it is absolutely necessary that you have an energetic and outgoing personality; the reason for this is that teaching children is more entertainment than you might imagine. Seeing is believing, but the most successful teachers are those that make learning fun and have fun themselves in doing so. A TESOL, TEFL, or TOEFL certificate is preferred, but is not necessary, nor is a knowledge of Mandarin.
I hope to hear from you soon!
Andy Wong
Thanks for your time and I know you have probably seen posts like this before but from my side of the fence some of the info you provide may be of huge value to me  |
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wood
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Any info on this ?? |
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| Mark Beckman wrote: |
The money seems way better (twice) than China or based on cost of living is this merely an illusion ?
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This part probably isn't an illusion. |
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Taylor
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 384
Location: Texas/Taiwan
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Mr. Beckman,
Everything that Andy Wong wrote sounds pretty standard. The schools would likely pay him around $30K NT dollars to provide them with a good teacher. If you were to quit (for any reason), then he would be obligated to find another one for the school to complete the one year period.
You can always just check this website and tealit.com to see who is hiring. Also, check chinapost.com.tw
I guess Mr. Wong feels he can give you a deeper insight to "the hidden job market."
As for your daughter, I know the trend in the US is toward home-schooling. Maybe you can get the curriculum necessary to let her graduate with her high school diploma. This might be your best option, as private International schools are very expensive! Your daughter could even be a "tutor" I bet...and make some money!
Keep posting and Best wishes.
Taylor |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 1:02 am Post subject: Re: Any info on this ?? |
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| Mark Beckman wrote: |
| I have a couple of good job offers from China but there is one from Taiwan that keeps getting my attention and was looking for opinions on it, also opinions on Taiwan (Kaohsiung) for my Wife (teacher) and Daughter (14) |
Having lived and worked in both Taiwan and China I would suggest that you give China a miss. Living in Taiwan will give you a good opportunity to travel in China, without the necessity to live the China way day to day.
Legal jobs in China are restricted to paying foreign teachers or �foreign experts� as they call them, up to about RMB6,000 (NTD24,000). Any teaching job paying more than that is not a legal job. Most jobs out of the city supply free accommodation, but this is pretty basic and there would be nothing for you to do in your free time, let alone your wife or daughter. Jobs in cities like Shanghai do not generally include housing, and as the costs of housing in Shanghai are really quite high, you would find that around 50% of your take home wage would be going to rent.
Some say that the cost of living in China is a lot less. I prefer to say that the quality of living in China is a lot less.
Taiwan offers better jobs, more legal work, better pay, better housing, and a better environment in which to live and actually enjoy yourself.
In helping you make a decision why not post a number of questions about things that are important to you, and post these on the Taiwan and China forums here at Daves. Mention that you are thinking of choosing between Taiwan and China, and see what response you get.
| Andy Wong wrote: |
| The market for native English speakers here is essentially just burgeoning- the full potential is far from realized. |
This sounds like a sales pitch if I have ever heard one, and doesn�t seem to be borne out by the facts. The market for foreign teachers is already pretty well supplied with thousands of teachers currently here. Yes there is work available, but no I wouldn�t agree that it is some sort of growth area.
| Andy Wong wrote: |
| In addition to teaching, I am also the director of recruitment for Global International Cultural and Educational Development, a division of Global TESOL College, representing Southern Taiwan. |
First off, I have never heard of this guy nor the organization that he works for. It is not listed on www.buxiban.com and the list of schools and agencies on that site is the most extensive that I have seen.
A Google search for the name brings up nothing.
This suggests that rather than being an established organization, that it is either new, or just a name that the guy thought up. Andy says that he teaches in kindergarten and is also the director of this organization. I have a feeling that he is the director of a one man show.
| Andy Wong wrote: |
| Understand that I am not an agent; I work on direct behalf of the schools that need teachers, and I am their exclusive source, so when you are hired, you get paid directly by the schools- there is no �middleman�. |
If what he says above is true then he�s an agent. There is plenty of advice here about dealing with agents, so I will let you make a decision on that yourself.
I think the point he is trying to make is this. There are two types of agents that you could deal with:
1. An agent that just introduces you to a school, collects a fee for the introduction (generally from the school), and then leaves you both alone to settle out your differeneces.
2. An agent that introduces you both, negotiates, signs a contract with you, and pays you each month.
I do agree with Andy that the second type should be avoided at all costs as more than likely they will be collecting a higher wage from the school for your services, than what they are paying you. Basically, they will skim a �management fee� off the top of your salary. If Andy doesn�t do this then that is a tick in the box for him.
| Andy Wong wrote: |
| The wages here are more than satisfactory- starting at 500-600 NT per hour, dependent upon experience- with somewhere between 20-25 hours per week; especially when you take into consideration the fact that the cost of living is substantially low, you can live well and save money. And there is always the option of picking up more work, usually through private tutoring sessions. |
The wage offered is pretty average, but reasonable for a new teacher.
I agree about the cost of living. You will be able to save.
Private work is definitely a possibility, but just remember that it is technically not allowed as you are only entitled to have one source of income (employer) unless you have provided paperwork for a second.
| Andy Wong wrote: |
| Most of the positions I can offer you are in Kaohsiung, teaching young children whose English levels vary� |
This most likely equates to work in kindergartens, which is the type of school that most recruiters tend to recruit for as the these jobs offer a monthly wage based upon a fixed number of hours each month. This makes it easy for the agent to calculate their commission.
Bear in mind that it is illegal for foreigners to work in kindergartens. The practice is widespread, and you would most likely not have any trouble were you to choose to work in a kindy, but you really need to know upfront that it is illegal. Ask Andy about this and see what he says.
| Andy Wong wrote: |
| Kaohsiung has a population of approximately 1.5 million, with about 2500 foreign English teachers. Like Taipei, it is a very international city, but unlike Taipei, it is much cleaner, the people are friendlier, and everything is considerably cheaper. |
I don�t think that it is fair to really compare cities, as most people would have a bias in this regard. Andy�s bias is most likely that he lives in Kaohsiung so it is easier for him to place you there.
I think it best to choose the city that YOU prefer most, and then undertake your job search there. Each city has it�s own advantages and disadvantages. My only caveat would be to avoid placements in rural areas in your first year, as the culture shock and isolation are greater there. This is one of the big problems with jobs on Mainland China as they are nearly all rural placements. Start out in a city. If you like the country and it�s people then you can consider a move to a country area in your second or third year.
| Andy Wong wrote: |
| What I can offer to you a direct connection with the schools, of which you will have the choice; that is, you decide which school you want to teach in, after you have seen a few different schools in person and met face to face with the owner and/or director. |
Can�t you do that on sites that offer jobs such as www.forumosa.com www.buxiban.com and excuse me for saying this but�.www.tealit.com .
| Andy Wong wrote: |
| You will not sign a contract until you come here and make your decision. The length of all the contracts is one year. |
Pretty standard, but good advice nonetheless.
Overall I would give Andy a thumbs up as far as agents go. I don�t believe that you need an agent, but if dealing through one makes you feel more secure then you could probably do worse than Andy. If my earlier assumptions are correct then he might be new to the game, possibly a teacher looking to make a few more bucks, but on the positive side this is likely to make him more enthusiastic and eager to please.
Check and double check everything he tells you, keep it in writing, and speak with current or ex-teachers from the school, and the school itself (if possible) before making any commitment. |
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Mark Beckman
Joined: 25 Nov 2004
Posts: 126
Location: 200kms East of Chengdu
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 1:42 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Guys and obviously a big thanks to you Clark for an above average reply, thanks for taking the time.
Of course you could have just written 'Nahh, its crappy here' and not given me even more choice now (read confusion) of where to go  |
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Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
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woman
Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 5:40 am Post subject: |
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I view your resume and it look like you�re interested of teaching English in Taiwan. You have made a good decision! The market for native English speakers here is essentially just burgeoning- the full potential is far from realized.
Surely hes developed Asian English...
I view ?
like ?
of ?
Or is it just me..? |
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Mark Beckman
Joined: 25 Nov 2004
Posts: 126
Location: 200kms East of Chengdu
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Thank you for your input but please note that I didnt post it for grammer correction, I posted it because it may have a dramatic change on my decision process (China vs Taiwan) with the hope that I may gain input from knowledgeable (and generous to take the time to reply) people with the experience that I lack. |
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woman
Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| It would still make me question something.... |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| woman wrote: |
| It would still make me question something.... |
Question what? His name shows that he is of Asian origin and may indicate that he isn't a native speaker, so why should he need to write like a native speaker to get the job done. I would think that his Chinese language abilities would be more pertinent to doing a good job than the fact that he made some grammatical errors in English.
Mark - Don't be confused. Live in Taiwan, and travel to the mainland if it is of interest to you to do so. Trust me on this one. You will appreciate my comments once you have been here and there. |
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Xenophobe
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 163
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Having lived in Kaohsiung for five years, I can't agree with the "cleaner"than Taipei statement. More laid back yes, but cleaner!?! Definitely not. |
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Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Mark - Don't be confused. Live in Taiwan, and travel to the mainland if it is of interest to you to do so. Trust me on this one. You will appreciate my comments once you have been here and there. |
Great advice and good to see you back!
| Quote: |
| I view your resume and it look like you�re interested of teaching English in Taiwan. You have made a good decision! The market for native English speakers here is essentially just burgeoning- the full potential is far from realized. |
Sounds like a head hunter / job placement agent / recruiter.
Generally speaking obtaining employment through agents in Taiwan is to be avoided.
There are many reason for this but the biggest reasons are the fact that so many teachers have gotten very badly burned using them and they are entirely unnecessary for almost all teachers.
Please read this,
http://www.geocities.com/taiwanteacher2002/Success.html
Good luck.
A. |
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The Great Wall of Whiner
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 4946
Location: Blabbing
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:47 pm Post subject: Re: Any info on this ?? |
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clark.w.griswald wrote:
| Quote: |
| Legal jobs in China are restricted to paying foreign teachers or ‘foreign experts’ as they call them, up to about RMB6,000 (NTD24,000). |
The pay is restricted? Better not tell my boss then! I'm making 12,000 RMB a month in China and only spending 3,000 a month to live.
Also, Taiwan won't pay for your air flight upfront. China will. Taiwan often pays by the hour, so during holidays you'll have no income coming in. China pays by the month regardless of how much you worked.
| Quote: |
| Some say that the cost of living in China is a lot less. I prefer to say that the quality of living in China is a lot less. |
When I was in Taiwan, I was given a dinky little flat with no washroom (shared with 5 other foreigners). It was more like a dorm than a home. Taiwan is just a "Japanesed" China. Heavily polluted, traffic congested and lots of litter everywhere.
| Quote: |
| Taiwan offers better jobs, |
I work two hours a day here in China; I worked 6 hours a day in Taiwan. In Taiwan I had to pay for my place to stay. China, my three bedroom flat was given to me.
My boss pays my bills.
More jobs in China than to shake a stick at.
I'm saving more in China than I did in Korea, Taiwan or Japan.
I have a three bedroom flat with a big living room, fully furnished with a computer thown in for good measure. In Taiwan, my house (more like room) had cockroaches.
| Quote: |
| and a better environment in which to live and actually enjoy yourself. |
I was assaulted twice in Taiwan from racist punks looking to "give it" to some white guy. Haven't had that problem here in China. Taiwan is far more violent than China. more drugs, too. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:36 am Post subject: |
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Interesting post GWW, but I am afraid that you haven�t brought anything new to the table as far as providing any convincing argument for working in China as opposed to Taiwan. I understand that it is a personal choice, and that some just plain prefer China. That�s fine and I accept that.
Looking at it from the view of someone who has neither been to either China or Taiwan, but is considering work in either of the two countries, I cannot see any valid reason to choose China over Taiwan.
| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
| The pay is restricted? Better not tell my boss then! I'm making 12,000 RMB a month in China and only spending 3,000 a month to live. |
If your boss needs to be told the law of employment regarding foreign professionals then we have just found another reason that Taiwan may be better than China for newcomers � incompetent bosses. But in all fairness we have our fair share of inept bosses here in Taiwan too.
The law clearly states the allowable pay rates for �foreign professionals� in China. As only foreign professionals are legally allowed to be employed by schools, then that means that legal teachers can only earn what the law states. It is really that simple.
I don�t doubt that you are earning in excess of that amount as I know of lots of jobs in private training companies and the like that do pay �reasonable� wages. The problem is that teachers earning this kind of money are not working legally.
So my point is that you can work legally in Taiwan and make good money. If you work legally as a teacher in China, you make a pittance. In order to earn good money in China you are forced to work illegally � as you are clearly doing by your own admission. Working illegally is fine if it is by choice, but I don�t see that it is the best interests of a newbie to take a job in a foreign country as an illegal teacher, particularly if, just like GWW, they are not made aware of the fact that they are actually working illegally.
| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
| Also, Taiwan won't pay for your air flight upfront. China will. |
I don�t dispute this, but I do see that the unwillingness of Taiwan employers to do this is a good thing. Employers in China don�t offer this because they want to. They offer this as an incentive to try and entice employees to go to China. Taiwan doesn�t need to do this.
I personally would consider any employer who is willing to offer return airfare to a teacher upfront, sight unseen, to be somewhat suspect. I mean a quality employer would surely want to:
a. Meet prospective teachers before employing them
b. See a demo class to make sure that they can teach
c. Protect the interests of the school by ensuring that the school doesn�t get ripped off by the minority of foreign teachers out there who don�t seem to have any moral conscience
To offer airfare willy nilly does not seem like a wise move to me, and I certainly support the companies that would actually insist that you work before you earn benefits, rather than companies that need to �bribe� you to work for them.
| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
| Taiwan often pays by the hour, so during holidays you'll have no income coming in. China pays by the month regardless of how much you worked. |
Well that�s not really correct. Yes, lots of jobs here in Taiwan do pay by the hour, but that is because that is what the market of foreign teachers want. There are about an equal number of positions however that do pay monthly salaries.
Personally, having worked both, I believe that hourly is the way to go, but it will vary from person to person. Working hourly gives you the freedom to take other, possibly higher paying, work on when it comes around, gives you time to go to school to study Chinese, or just time to relax and do some hiking of whatever. Monthly salaries commit you to a place of work all day everyday.
Of course, the majority of jobs in China are within schools or institutions located in rural areas, often out of town. Even in Shanghai you will find that most of the universities are in places like Zhabei that are really inconvenient as far as public transportation. In these jobs it just isn�t feasible to be traveling into town when you have a few hours off. Secondly, considering how much you can legally earn per hour in China (according to the Foreign Experts Regulations), you would only be paid about RMB50 (NTD200) per hour which would not make many positions very feasible if you were paid hourly. It is for these reasons that salary packages are the norm in China, and I wouldn�t accept a job teaching in China unless I was offered a salary package.
Comparing Taiwan and China in this regard is like comparing apples and oranges.
| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Some say that the cost of living in China is a lot less. I prefer to say that the quality of living in China is a lot less. |
When I was in Taiwan, I was given a dinky little flat with no washroom (shared with 5 other foreigners). It was more like a dorm than a home. Taiwan is just a "Japanesed" China. Heavily polluted, traffic congested and lots of litter everywhere. |
If your account above is true then you were a bit of a loser for accepting that job and living under those conditions weren�t you? You must have realized when talking to and visiting friends that your accommodation was a dive and that they were living in western style accommodation for quite cheap.
It is not the norm in Taiwan for employers to offer accommodation. In some positions in rural areas they do, and it wouldn�t surprise me in the least if the quality of this accommodation wasn�t up to western standards. The fact is however, that in Taiwan you earn enough to get your own place if you are not happy with the schools accommodation, and your own accommodation can be conveniently located to the school.
In China your accommodation options are generally quite limited. In big cities, the nice western style accommodation is ridiculously overpriced. In rural cities the quality of accommodation is�.well�.somewhat below the expectations of westerners in most cases. Generally speaking positions are offered with accommodation included and this accommodation is compulsory for teachers. It is generally within the school, and although the quality can vary from really quite nice, to downright terrible, it is nearly always very simple, very plain, and comparable to what I would imagine prison cells would look like.
| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Taiwan offers better jobs, |
I work two hours a day here in China; I worked 6 hours a day in Taiwan. In Taiwan I had to pay for my place to stay. China, my three bedroom flat was given to me.
My boss pays my bills. |
I guess that this is where I may have been wrong in my earlier post. My personality is to get as much out of my time as I can. I like to work hard, earn good money, and then enjoy spending this money. I have very full days, such that I am out and about from 8am till late every day. Sometimes at work, sometimes at play.
The job that you describe above sounds like you are just existing. From your post it would seem that it is a full time, salaried position, for which I assume that you need to be at the school for maybe 6 to 8 hours a day. If you are only teaching two hours, then I assume that you need are pretty much just hanging out for the rest of the time, maybe doing some lesson planning, surfing the net, reading etc. I guess that this would suit some, but personally the boredom would kill me, and this was the major reason that I gave away my salaried position, even though it was really quite well paid.
Just for clarification. You have a job that pays you RMB12,000 per month, to teach 10 hours a week!! You are working on Z visa, and you have the �foreign experts� passbook/the green book.
| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
More jobs in China than to shake a stick at. |
I don�t doubt that there are plenty of legal jobs in China - but yours is not one of them.
Legal jobs in China pay RMB3,000-6,000 per month by law.
| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
| I'm saving more in China than I did in Korea, Taiwan or Japan. |
Well you must have had a pretty pathetic job in Taiwan then. I fail to see how you could be earning NTD60,000 (the average monthly wage for foreigners) in Taiwan and not saved as much as you do in your current job that pays NTD48,000. Stuff is cheap in China that�s for sure, but you get what you pay for.
I don�t spend a fortune, but eat nice food and buy nice things, and I still manage to save more than half of what I earn per month.
| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
I have a three bedroom flat with a big living room, fully furnished with a computer thown in for good measure. In Taiwan, my house (more like room) had *beep*. |
Don�t even try to argue that housing in China is better than housing in Taiwan. I am willing to accept that some teachers at some really cool schools in China get some really cool housing, but on average teacher housing in China is well below the standard in Taiwan.
I have already admitted that the place that you describe that you lived in while you were in Taiwan was a dive, but I think the fact that you chose to actually live there after you saw it for the first time, as more of a reflection upon you, than on housing in Taiwan.
| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
| Quote: |
| and a better environment in which to live and actually enjoy yourself. |
I was assaulted twice in Taiwan from racist punks looking to "give it" to some white guy. Haven't had that problem here in China. Taiwan is far more violent than China. more drugs, too. |
I have never been assaulted in my more than ten years here. None of my long term friends have been assaulted either.
Assaults on foreigners do occur, that�s for sure. The �victims� are nearly always young, recent graduates in their first time in Asia, drunk, full of bravado, acting obnoxiously in a bar, in the early hours of the morning. Of course there are drugs available in these same places. People who choose to live that way should expect that sort of trouble.
Maybe a reason that assaults on foreigners may be less common in China (if that is in fact the case) it is probably because other than the big cities there are no real foreigner hangouts, nor are most teachers in rural areas allowed out at night. Having said that, assaults do occur on foreigners in foreigner bars in China, they are just not so well reported.
In my time in China I recall that a German family of mother, father, and school aged daughter and son were all stabbed to death in their own house inside a secure compound. Many heard the screams of terror coming from inside the house as the two assailants carried out the crime over a period of ten to fifteen minutes, but no one did anything. The motive � robbery. The assailants escaped but �were captured� and executed soon afterwards. During my time in Taiwan I have not heard a story that comes even close to be such a savage attack as this one. Given the choice between some fisticuffs in bar and a possible bleeding nose and cracked lip; or being slaughtered in your own home late at night � I know which one I would choose.
I am not saying that China is dangerous as far as crime. I don�t believe that it is. But neither is Taiwan, unless of course you mix in the wrong circles or behave in an inappropriate manner. None of this is any different than back home. |
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canadian-girl
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 46
Location: yangmei, taiwan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:12 am Post subject: |
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I just wanted to say that I know Andy personally. he's canadian, i went to tesol with him.......great guy, he talked to me previously about working down there, but i already had a contract. I also know another gentleman working with him...they are both great guys, and i personally would recommend them. I trust Andy.
not sure if this helps.....good luck though |
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