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English ability

 
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Sheila



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 2
Location: China

PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2003 11:19 am    Post subject: English ability Reply with quote

Is it just me or is one's ability to utilise English proficiently completely irrelevant in this great country?
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Sheila



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 2
Location: China

PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2003 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should add that my question was in relation to Lao Wei teaching English here.
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Anda



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 2199
Location: Jiangsu Province

PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2003 2:39 pm    Post subject: No Reply with quote

It always seems that way until you stick around for a time. I teach in Korea and find that after a time that I get more accepted into an area the loger that I teach in the area provided I put the effort in. It won't be any different in China. You notice it when you move to a new area and have to start again!
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Anthony



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2003 7:54 am    Post subject: Re: No Reply with quote

......

Last edited by Anthony on Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:52 am; edited 2 times in total
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arioch36



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589

PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2003 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I don't think I like this forum style. But I think it's a good question

Can't say as I agree. For a Chinese student, English is extremely important, even if he never talks to a foreigner.
1) For better or worse, how good the student is at english is a de facto symbol of intelligence and academic ability. Years ago Latin was needed in the west if you wanted to excel academically. Now it's statistics. I was a TA in it one semester at my uni, and schools loved it.
If the student wants to continue on to graduate school, they better have english skills.
And in China, as in the west, the higher the level of education, the better the job. And though it seems like there are so many students studying english, you have to realize how many are not even students, unlike the west, where everyone can be a students
2) Working in any city, english can help so much. Want a job at pizza hut or McDonald's (Good jobs in China) English will give you a big edge. Here in Zhengzhou almost no one speaks english. Very hard to get western food. Two small, tiny stores sell things like Parmesan cheese butter, etc. The girl at one of the stores is getting better at english. She can deal with us waijiao. The boss gives her more trust and respect.
3) It is a status symbol
4) A girl graduated from my first college in International Trade (A common subject) Foreign langhuage students had 30 students in oral english. Her class had 60.But she worked hard. She's been working in Shanghai since last summer. Because her english is better than the other co-workers, the boss uses her to talk to foreigners. You think this isn't relevant?
It is an international market. That's where the big market is. And for better or worse, English is the international language. I hope you are taking your job seriously. The parents of most of your students are giving you their life investment. And you will have a profound impact on the lives of these young people.
Oh, and even if English wasn't relevant, it is always relevant when you work hard at what you are doing. The lazy students in English...I wouldn't trust them with any job.
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Jonathan



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

arioch36 wrote:
Oh, I don't think I like this forum style. But I think it's a good question

Can't say as I agree. For a Chinese student, English is extremely important, even if he never talks to a foreigner.
1) For better or worse, how good the student is at english is a de facto symbol of intelligence and academic ability. Years ago Latin was needed in the west if you wanted to excel academically. Now it's statistics. I was a TA in it one semester at my uni, and schools loved it.
If the student wants to continue on to graduate school, they better have english skills.
And in China, as in the west, the higher the level of education, the better the job. And though it seems like there are so many students studying english, you have to realize how many are not even students, unlike the west, where everyone can be a students
2) Working in any city, english can help so much. Want a job at pizza hut or McDonald's (Good jobs in China) English will give you a big edge. Here in Zhengzhou almost no one speaks english. Very hard to get western food. Two small, tiny stores sell things like Parmesan cheese butter, etc. The girl at one of the stores is getting better at english. She can deal with us waijiao. The boss gives her more trust and respect.
3) It is a status symbol
4) A girl graduated from my first college in International Trade (A common subject) Foreign langhuage students had 30 students in oral english. Her class had 60.But she worked hard. She's been working in Shanghai since last summer. Because her english is better than the other co-workers, the boss uses her to talk to foreigners. You think this isn't relevant?
It is an international market. That's where the big market is. And for better or worse, English is the international language. I hope you are taking your job seriously. The parents of most of your students are giving you their life investment. And you will have a profound impact on the lives of these young people.
Oh, and even if English wasn't relevant, it is always relevant when you work hard at what you are doing. The lazy students in English...I wouldn't trust them with any job.


Again, the original question has (somewhat ironically) been totally misunderstood. The question was (if I may be allowed to paraphrase): "Is the ability to use English not germane to TEACHERS of English in CHina" (EF English First has begun to employ NON-NATIVE speakers as DOSs (!; how desperate they must be)
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ESLteacher



Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2003 2:18 pm    Post subject: t Reply with quote

tt

Last edited by ESLteacher on Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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ESLteacher



Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:08 pm    Post subject: r Reply with quote

rr

Last edited by ESLteacher on Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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Roger



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2003 1:47 am    Post subject: ...and what is the reason... Reply with quote

And, what might be the reason that the first poster5 asked why Chinese need expat teachers in the first place to teach them English?

As Chris (arioch36) pointed out, the CHinese succumbed to the temptation of symbolism. English is a status symbol, nothing more and nothing less. It has no discernible practical function except for the few that go on to work in international corporations and their China branches. CHinesepilots too need English, evidently, but from some intelligence I gathered you had better ignore how well this rule is being enforced here!

Status symbol, money, social mobility, travels abroad (and returning with a coveted second nationality/passport). Practical to some extent, but not practical in terms of communication.

And because of this big, big illusion English has become one of the most profitable products to sell, hence the needs for schools and training centres to have "a white face", and sometimes to just have a "foreign face".

If we had any impact here, then the English of the masses would have had to improve exponentially over the past 20 years, at least over the past 5 years. It is now a compulsory subject. Still, how many Chinese are functionally literate in the language??? How many can maintain a meaningful discussion???? How man UNDERSTAND English? Probably fewer than can "speak"! I can "speak" Japanese - Toyota, Toshiba, Hino, Hkitachi, Kawasaki, sushi, and what nont - and that is how CHinese "speak" ENglish!

So, to return to the original poster's question: We are needed here to give a school face so they can make money by making young and not-so-young learners familiar with foreign noises that pass for English (to them) or CHinglish (to us).

And don't blame this on the non-native teachers as such.

To be bilingual always is an advantageas it makes you better aware of the nuances of good language versus substandard language. It also enhances your own respect for your mother tongue.

In principle, Chinese ought to be able to deliver. They should be the first and most suitable teachers. Unfortunately, their own English immersion is totally inadequate and hopelessly old-fashioned in terms of teaching style.

This they pass on, and their own students become accustomed to this time-worn method, and many rebel when they are confronted with a Westerner who teaches them in a more enlightened, proactive and participative manner.

It is unlike in Africa or Europe.
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Per Scott



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say that your knowledge of English isn't important unless you have ad-vanced students. I've worked with Koreans and Chinese who were hired as native speakers, but who made numerous mistakes in both speaking and writing. I've worked at about 12 schools in Asia, and, as a native speaker, your ability will put you well into a linguistic comfort zone vis-a vis your Chinese counterparts.
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Stephen



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Per Scott wrote:
I'd say that your knowledge of English isn't important unless you have ad-vanced students. I've worked with Koreans and Chinese who were hired as native speakers, but who made numerous mistakes in both speaking and writing. I've worked at about 12 schools in Asia, and, as a native speaker, your ability will put you well into a linguistic comfort zone vis-a vis your Chinese counterparts.


This has a lot of truth about it if you are talking about highly skilled non-native teachers. That is they are very good at teaching, but how many good Chinese English teachers are there currently in China?

I do not like this idea that some people put around that English is always best taught by ANY native speaker, but you have to look at the standard of teaching of the non-native speaker, as well as if they have a suffiecient level of English for what they are teaching. However, perhaps some of the native speakers teaching in China may not come out too well after a closer examination of their teaching either.
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xiaoyu



Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 167
Location: China & Montana, USA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my personal opinion may not be worth much as i am not in a management position, however here goes.... non-native speakers can often be more helpful in teaching english as a foreign language simply because they have had to learn it as a foreign language.... which in some ways gives them an advantage to the native speaker..... however, it does depend a lot on the ability of the non-native speaker to communicate clearly and concisely.... i have met many non-native speakers who were wonderful english teachers... in fact i learned some teaching methods from them.... and greatly appreciated their help... and i have met native speakers who (no offense) couldnt' tell up from down when trying to explain their language to the student..... it comes down to teaching ability... until you get to advanced students who are primarily focusing on slang or accent.... good job to those non native teachers who have done good jobs teaching... and good luck to those native speakers who wish to be a good english teach abroad...
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