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twoface · Joined: 12 Nov 2004 Posts: 31

Are memes transferrable across the language barrier and if so how useful are they as a teaching tool? Are they useful at all or are they detrimental?

shmooj · Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 1758 Location: Seoul, ROK

Guy Courchesne · Joined: 10 Mar 2003 Posts: 9650 Location: Mexico City

Working from the definition Shmooj provides, I think memes carry a variety of transferability. Basic structures of human existence, like parents, eating, sex, fright...these are easy to start from. There are likely many other memes that aren't so easily transferable. Certain public gestures, social norms, political/historical concepts, perception of time would be more difficult.

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

I thought this word was French, and yes, there is a French word 'meme'.

Guy Courchesne · Joined: 10 Mar 2003 Posts: 9650 Location: Mexico City

M�me, I think it is spelled, is French for same

Le m�me chose....the same thing

I thought meme was Greek

shmooj · Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 1758 Location: Seoul, ROK

Guy Courchesne · Joined: 10 Mar 2003 Posts: 9650 Location: Mexico City

Interesting Shmooj...

It's easier in Mexico in this respect since culturally, Mexicans and Americans (Canucks too) share a lot in common. Japan seems to offer a whole new world of thought...but that's what makes learning a language and teaching it fun, verdad?

Spanish provides some troubles right from day 1 with the verb to be. Grammar translation brings us to two forms of this basic verb in Spanish, one for the person and things that do not change (ser), and another for localization and things that do change (estar). It's not enough to simply tell the students to use to be in both examples...one must get to the purpose of the verb first.

struelle · Joined: 16 May 2003 Posts: 2372 Location: Shanghai

Great topic! Another meme that ESL students pick up on is the roundabout and polite way of making requests in English.

'I was wondering if you could ... '
'Is it possible to ...'
'Can I help you?'
'Yeah, I'm interested in ...'

This can seem a little offputting for Chinese students, for example, where the norm is to make short and direct requests if you don't know the person. The language of Mandarin is highly condensed as well. In English you might say an entire long phrase, whereas Mandarin could do the same in 4 characters.

On a crowded bus, the driver will holler out, 'wang limian zou' which means 'Move inside!' Here, the driver will say, "Can I have everybody please move to the back of the bus."

Steve

shmooj · Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 1758 Location: Seoul, ROK

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

Guy Courchesne · Joined: 10 Mar 2003 Posts: 9650 Location: Mexico City

shmooj · Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 1758 Location: Seoul, ROK

once again · Joined: 27 Jan 2003 Posts: 815

I may be very much mistaken here, but I think that "meme" was a word coined by Richard Dawking. He suggests that just as "genes" are passed down through generations biologicaly, then so are "memes" passed down sociologically. For instance, the correct words to a popular song, I think he use the song "Old Langes Singe" in his book (could be the "Blind Watch Maker") but not sure, are always sung wrongly. Thus the original word had mutated and survives by its repeated copying. He was using the idea to suggest that mutation and survival happen in all spheres.

Could be completely wrong about all this though. But if my mispelling "singe" becomes the standard, then his theory will have been proved.

Guy Courchesne · Joined: 10 Mar 2003 Posts: 9650 Location: Mexico City

I tried google with "meme definition"...got what you got Shmooj. ThenI tried it as "meme french definition" and got the Dawkin's def higher up.

Lynn · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 696 Location: in between

After living in Japan for 4 years and being married to a Japanese guy, I often confuse "sorry" and "thank you". For example, if a busy co-worker takes time to help me I'll say, "Oh, sorry I'm taking up your time in your busy day just to show me how to do this." When maybe I should be saying,"Thanks for taking the time to help me." This might come from the Japanese meme.

Edit: Just realized I never answered the question. Yes, they are very useful. Language and culture go hand in. Although, I must say, memes cannot be learned or picked up in a classroom. And also, not everyone is senstive to them. I once had an American friend in Japan who was convinced that Japanese had no sense of humor. She was standing out side her junior high in the pouring rain. The janitor was nearby and she said, what was supposed to be sarcastically, "ah, just lovely weather, isn't it?" She was so upset because the guy just looked at her like she was nuts. She told me, "I said repeatedly to the guy,'kyo wa ii tenki des ne'" and he wouldn't even respond!"

I kindly told her that doesn't make any sense in Japanese. That's why she didn't get a response. But she didn't understand. She was set on the idea that Japanese were humorless.