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feidemingjun
Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Posts: 7
Location: Shanghai
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 Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:21 am Post subject: 2 questions - need answers |
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1. Do I need to show a plane ticket to apply for a tourist visa at the China consulate office in San Francisco?
2. I'm planning to take United Airlines to China on a 30 day tourist visa. Might I run into problems with holding a one-way ticket?
Thanks go out to all replies. |
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amandabarrick
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 391
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:36 am Post subject: |
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Feidemingjun,
I have never been asked to show my plane ticket when applying for a tourist visa at the China consulate in SF. However, I used a visa agent both times to secure the tourist visa rather then go to SF in person. The last time I applied was in March 2004.
In response to question 2, I don't know the answer but would like to ask the same question. I will also be taking United Airlines to China on a 30 day tourist visa. Does anyone know if United requires passengers with a tourist visa to have a return ticket? I guess I could contact the airline and ask.
AB |
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KES
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 722
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:37 am Post subject: |
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This is my personal experience, not to be taken as gospel.
1. I did not need a plane ticket to obtain a Visa. I used a Visa processing service rather than appearing in person. However, nowhere in the Visa paperwork do I recall any such requirement.
2. You may very well run into difficulties with a 30 day tourist Visa. In my case, (I believe it was also United Airlines), they flatly refused, at the airport, to issue me a boarding pass with only a one way ticket.
They told me that if I arrived in China with a one way ticket, I would be immediately forced to return back to my Country of origin and that the airline would be fined 25,000 US dollars.
I have subsequently met folks who managed to arrived here on a one-way ticket and experienced no problem. I have met about an equal number who also had my problem.
Anyway, to complete the story, they tried to force me to buy a return ticket on the spot ($1,400). I asked if the regulation stated I had to have a round trip ticket or merely show a ticket exiting China. It was the latter they said.
So I bought an OPEN, REFUNDABLE ticket to Manilia for $230 and finally was allowed to board the plane.
Hope this helps. |
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tofuman
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
Posts: 937
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| "I guess I could contact the airline and ask." G...Ge...Gen...Geni...Geniu...Genius! |
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Spiderman Too
Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 732
Location: Caught in my own web
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:45 am Post subject: |
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There are 2 issues involved;
1
For entry on a tourist visa, many countries require you to have an exit ticket (it doesn't have to be a return to your original destination and it doesn't have to be by plane) or be able to show that you have sufficient funds to be able to buy an exit ticket. A credit card is usually acceptable.
2
Obtaining an entry visa before travelling to a country (any country) is not a guarantee that you will be allowed entry; the final decision rests with the immigration officials at the port of entry.
There are many reasons why immigration officials may deny you entry, even though you have a visa, including;
- suspicion that you intend to work in the country but do not have a work visa
- belief that you have insufficient funds to support yourself
- assessment that you are an unfit visitor (got drunk on the plane and caused a disturbance)
It's not unheard of for people to be denied entry into a country upon arrival at the airport of that country.
If you are denied entry, the airline that brought you to the country is responsible to take you back from whence you came; full-stop, no arguments! It matters not that you don't have any money to buy a return ticket, the airline MUST repatriate you.
Consequently, SOME airlines insist that you have a return ticket BEFORE you leave.
If you are an eloquent and determined speaker, you can argue that with the airline staff that you will be leaving China overland to Vietnam or by ferry to Hong Kong upon the expiration of your tourist visa.
However, the fact remains the airline is aware that if you don't actually get past immigration at the airport they must give you a seat on the next plane out. |
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amandabarrick
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 391
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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I called United Airlines on the phone and asked them "with a 30-day tourist visa, can I board the plane with only a one-way ticket?" The lady I talked to said "NO!" I would not be allowed to board a United plane from the U.S. to China. She said the agent at the airport won't issue me a boarding pass. This is consistent with what KES has said. The logic behind this reasoning probably follows that of what Spiderman Too has said.
I also asked the lady what documents I needed to show in order to board the plane with a 30-day tourist visa. She replied that I needed to show a ticket out of China within the 30 days. I guess I will do what KES has done, the refundable ticket to Manilla or Thailand, etc...
I tried to explain to her that when I flew to China last year on Asiana Airlines, I entered the country with a one-way ticket and a 30-day tourist visa. No problems at customs/immigration in that they didn't ask to see my return ticket, etc... But she didn't care to comment on this.
She tried to tell me that the Chinese consulate will not issue me a visa without proof of leaving China, which is false. I already have the 30 day tourist visa and the consulate doesn't care if you have a one-way ticket or even if you have a ticket at all...
So, I asked her, "if I have a one-way ticket, what type of visa must I have in order to board the plane? She said I had to have a visa with no expiration. She said I had to be a Chinese citizen.
This policy is ridiculous I know. If I had a 1 year Z-visa, I still couldn't board the plane with a one-way ticket??? What do they want me to do, buy I return ticket a year in advance????
AB |
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tofuman
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
Posts: 937
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| You can buy an "open return" ticket. |
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amandabarrick
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 391
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:32 am Post subject: |
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There must be a way to enter with a one-way ticket. What if you are teaching in China for longer than a year??? If you had an "open return" ticket, i doubt you could extend it for several years. What do all the businessmen in Shanghai and Beijing do? They must enter with a one-way ticket, since they stay some of them stay for many years. Don't any of them take United? Why is United being so ... fan?
AB |
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Norman Bethune
Joined: 19 Apr 2004
Posts: 731
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:53 am Post subject: |
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So you want to enter China on a 30 day visa with a one way plane ticket, and some check-in clerk at the airline counter gives you the spiel: "Sorry I can't let you baord without an outgoing ticket"?
What's a poor traveler to do?
First, be prepared for such a scenario before going to the airport. Know the names of places in China. Know the Visa regualtions for countries which border China. Be ready to quote the Visa regulations for your nationality visiting Hong Kong, Japan and Macau.
The clerk hassles you.
Say: "I will travel through China for 30 days and then I will visit Hong Kong (or Macau, or Japan). When I leave China, I will do so by train or use a Chinese Domestic airline to fly to that destination which I can only arrange to buy in China. I will return to my home country by purchasing a return fare in one of those other countries."
If the clerk continues to hassle you, call for a supervisor. Explain to him the same thing. If the problem continues, ask to see his supervisor. Or have the number of the airlines head office ready and be prepared to call it to resolve the problem.
An airline clerk is not a gun-toting customs or immigration official. Their word is not gospel.
When you get to China, if a Chinese official asks why you don't have a return ticket, explain your intention to transit the country and then enter Macau, or Hong Kong and buy a flight home from there. The Chinese understand this.
Airlines often insist you need a return ticket to board a plane not for any existing Legal requirement of the destination country or departure country.
They do it to protect thier own arses. Should a passenger not be allowed to enter the destination country on a one way fare by immigration officials, it is the responsibility of the airline that took them there to see that they get back home. Airlines want to make sure that you either can pay for the flight back in such an event, or that you already have a paid ticket back on their airline. |
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journeyeast
Joined: 03 Dec 2004
Posts: 56
Location: China, Connecicut USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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Um.. Probably better to get a 90-day visa, gives your school enough of a margin of time to process everything to convert your visa to Z type.. Hopefully they can.
Good luck |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| Norman Bethune wrote: |
| If the clerk continues to hassle you, call for a supervisor. Explain to him the same thing. If the problem continues, ask to see his supervisor. Or have the number of the airlines head office ready and be prepared to call it to resolve the problem. |
This is really a case of shooting the messenger.
Chinese Immigration legislation clearly states that the airline bringing a traveller to China, who is subsequently refused entry to China, is required to repatriate them:
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Article 11
Upon arrival of a foreign aircraft or a vessel at a port in China, the persons in charge shall have the following responsibilities:
(1) the aircraft commander, the captain or the agent must submit to the border inspection office a name list of the crew members, and a name list of the passengers;
(2) if the aircraft or vessel happens to carry persons who attempt to cross the borders illegally, the case must be reported as soon as it is discovered, to the border inspection office for disposition;
(3) with regard to the persons who are forbidden to enter the country, the persons in charge must assume the responsibility to take such persons away by means of the original aircraft or vessel; with respect to persons who are unable to leave the country immediately owing to force majeure, the persons in charge shall be responsible for paying such persons' living costs during their stay in China, and also for paying their travelling costs when they leave the country. |
Sure, this airline could recover these costs by way of civil action back home, but then why would they when they can exercise their rights of carriage to keep you off the airplane in the first case. They are afterall private companies who offer you a seat on their plane. If you do not wish to follow the rules that they impose to protect themselves against losses, then feel free to fly another airline that doesn't protect it's rights, nor no doubt the rights of it's customers.
| Norman Bethune wrote: |
| An airline clerk is not a gun-toting customs or immigration official. Their word is not gospel. |
In this case it seems that the airline clerk actually holds more power. You can't go head to head with immigration officials if the airline does not let you fly.
| Norman Bethune wrote: |
| When you get to China, if a Chinese official asks why you don't have a return ticket, explain your intention to transit the country and then enter Macau, or Hong Kong and buy a flight home from there. The Chinese understand this. |
I am sure that this is generally unneccesary, but may work if you were actually pulled up for not having an outbound ticket. None of this is of any consequence to the airline however, as they dont' care to worry whether or not you can sweet talk the immigration officials. They protect themselves by enforcing blanket rules based upon the Immigration Legislation of the country that one will fly to.
| Norman Bethune wrote: |
| Airlines often insist you need a return ticket to board a plane not for any existing Legal requirement of the destination country or departure country. |
I don't see any reason that an airline would refuse a paying customer unless there was some risk to them losing money. It is pretty clear that it is a requirement of China that foreign nationals have an outbound ticket, whether or not this is consistently enforced. I know for a fact that Taiwan does have this legal requirement and have posted a lengthy reply about this fact over on the Taiwan forum, and you can see this here.
| Norman Bethune wrote: |
| They do it to protect thier own arses. Should a passenger not be allowed to enter the destination country on a one way fare by immigration officials, it is the responsibility of the airline that took them there to see that they get back home. Airlines want to make sure that you either can pay for the flight back in such an event, or that you already have a paid ticket back on their airline. |
Exactly! So why should they let you fly without the required documentation? Any costs incurred by doing this are not going to be borne by the airline, but instead by every other passenger through fare increases. What exactly would be the complaint that you would make to the airline? |
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amandabarrick
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 391
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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It is pretty clear that it is a requirement of China that foreign nationals have an outbound ticket,
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Where is this stated? can you cite your source of information? Where does it say that an outbound ticket is required? Attempting to cross the border illegally doesn't mention lacking an outbound ticket as being illegal. If it is required, why does the China embassy issue visas to foreign nationals who do not have an outbound ticket??? I understand Taiwan has such a legal requirement, but even in Taiwan this is only for certain types of visas.
If China has a similiar legal requirement, which visa requires an outbound ticket? According to United Airlines, all visa holders require an outbound ticket regardless of which visa you have. So I am still wondering how these foreign businessmen living in China for 5 years board a United plane with a one-way ticket?
"Yes, I would like a round trip ticket, leaving April 1st and returning May 2010."
AB |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:45 am Post subject: |
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| amandabarrick wrote: |
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| It is pretty clear that it is a requirement of China that foreign nationals have an outbound ticket, |
Where is this stated? can you cite your source of information? Where does it say that an outbound ticket is required? |
A very reasonable question, but I can't for the life of me find the answer. When I say that it is clear that they have this requirement (even though it is not in the legislation that I was looking at) I mean that it is pretty clear that the requirement exists as airlines would be unlikely to turn away passengers unless they were concerned about the consequences of not doing so, and based upon the premise that many countries have this requirement. I posted the information about Taiwan so that others could see that there are such legislative requirements in existence, and I am still looking to see where these are applied in China. If I find it, I will post it.
| amandabarrick wrote: |
| If it is required, why does the China embassy issue visas to foreign nationals who do not have an outbound ticket??? |
Despite the fact that the Taiwan legislation states very clearly that an outbound ticket is required to enter Taiwan, it is not difficult to obtain a visa to Taiwan without an outbound flight. You can lie to the visa office, you can produce a ticket or travel plan which you then later cancel, you could buy an outbound ticket and then cancel it, you could use a visa agent who may do this all for you, or you may just get lucky and the agent processing your visa may overlook the fact either intentionally or unintentionally. I am sure that all of these reasons exist in the China siuation too.
Just because China may issue a visa doesn't automatically entitle you to enter the country. If indeed the legislation specifically states the requirement of an outbound ticket, which I am pretty sure that it does, or merely because the immigration authorities require this, then a visa toting foreigner could technically be refused entry to China until they buy an outbound ticket. This is all borne out by personal experiences in Taiwan, and I am sure that it is likely to hold true in China, hence the airlines position on the subject.
| amandabarrick wrote: |
| I understand Taiwan has such a legal requirement, but even in Taiwan this is only for certain types of visas. |
That is not my understanding. My understanding is that it applies to all foreign nationals. The legislation doesn't list any exceptions that I am aware of. Even residents with ARC's must have an outbound flight if we take the legislation at it's word, but in practice this is rarely enforced. I suspect that the same is true in China. However, just because people can and do enter these countries without meeting these requirements doesn't mean that everyone can, or that the airlines should take the risk in carrying these people.
I have been a legal resident in Taiwan for many years, and Mainland China for a couple of years. In the many times that I have flown back and forth between these countries and my home country, I have only been asked for proof of onward travel by airline staff a few times. Fortunately I always had this, and wasn't required to buy an expensive outbound flight just to board the plane.
| amandabarrick wrote: |
| If China has a similiar legal requirement, which visa requires an outbound ticket? According to United Airlines, all visa holders require an outbound ticket regardless of which visa you have. |
I doubt that any legislation specifies this as I am sure that the authorities wish to keep the situation easily adjustable to their own needs. Again to take the Taiwan legislation as an example, it just states 'foreign nationals', and doesn't go into details about which type visa is held. I am sure that the immigration authorities have their own guidelines as to which visa holders may be more strictly considered, but I don't think that we nor the airlines are privy to this information. The airlines are therefore most likely taking the broad legislation and saying 'You're a foreign national and therefore you need an outbound flight if you want to enter that country on our airplane'. I can't fault them for this policy, and in fact I see it as a good thing as it is just one way that they can hopefully keep ticket prices down for the rest of us. Only marginally of course, but it is better than paying extra to cover the costs of all the passengers they may be required to repatriate for one reason or another.
| amandabarrick wrote: |
| So I am still wondering how these foreign businessmen living in China for 5 years board a United plane with a one-way ticket? |
Very few foreign business peoples stay in China for more than a calendar year without leaving the country at some time for either a business or pleasure trip. Some do however. My guesses are as follows:
1. They come on an open return valid for a year and use the return portion for their annual vacation back home at Christmas or Thanksgiving.
2. They get an outbound ticket to another destination such as Hong Kong, Japan, or Thailand, and then either use this for a vacation, business trip, or even cash it in for a refund.
3. They buy a cheap return and just don't take the return trip.
4. They take the risk and come on a one way. Many people do this I am sure, and get away with it. It is just the 'what if' that people need to worry about.
I will try to track down the legislation as I see that it is pertinent.
In the meantime, my point is really that I don't see the airlines as being unreasonable in their requirement that you have an outbound flight. They are a private business and they have the right to protect their interests. |
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amandabarrick
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 391
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| hat is not my understanding. My understanding is that it applies to all foreign nationals. The legislation doesn't list any exceptions that I am aware of. Even residents with ARC's must have an outbound flight if we take the legislation at it's word, but in practice this is rarely enforced. |
Interesting. I thought foreign nationals in Taiwan with a Resident Visa didn't require an outbound ticket because the visa has no duration of stay. I suppose the ARC card expiration date would mean that a foreign national would need an outbound ticket before its expiration, in theory.
AB |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| amandabarrick wrote: |
| I thought foreign nationals in Taiwan with a Resident Visa didn't require an outbound ticket because the visa has no duration of stay. I suppose the ARC card expiration date would mean that a foreign national would need an outbound ticket before its expiration, in theory. |
Actually it would be the other way around. The ARC is dependant upon the resident visa and therefore the ARc has no expiration date. The ARC becomes invalid when the resident visa expires.
The airline officials don't seem to really care about your visa status when considering the dilemma of whether or not you have an outbound ticket. If you are a foreign national and you are coming to Taiwan then you can be sure that some airlines will check to see if you have an outbound ticket, and it appears that United Airlines is one of these. I think it safe to assume that the same is true for China.
As I mentioned in my earlier post, I have had mixed experiences with airline check-in staff and immigration officials. For some of them not having a return ticket is a problem, for others it isn't.
One consistency has been the fact that the airline check-in staff are often ignorant of the various visas for Taiwan, but then this is to be expected as they no doubt handle flights to any country and can't be expected to know everything about each countries visas. This becomes apparent on occasion when I have been questioned about the fact that my most recent resident visa has been stamped with 'USED' accross it, even though it is still valid.
Still looking for the legislation but not doing too well. Anyone care to point me in the right direction? |
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