Job Discussion Forums

[tofuman]

http://www.usembassy-china.org.cn/us-citizen/ptr/052103apt.html

This is a link I found on the Journeyeast website. The embassy is explicit about the "Z" visa being the only legal way to teach in China.

So all you shadowy operators, regulation skirters, convention flaunters, lawbreakers, and other dubious types, let the flames begin.

But can they reach me, elevated as I am, upon my pedestal of self-righteous narcissism?

[smalldog]

[ChinaMovieMagic]

Chimpanzee Attack Doesn't Surprise Experts

2 hours, 37 minutes ago Top Stories - AP


By KIM CURTIS and TERENCE CHEA, Associated Press Writers

HAVILAH, Calif. - Chimpanzees come across to the public as little darlings, often in diapers and always willing to hold hands. But they're really aggressors, primate experts say, more than capable of carrying out attacks as violent as one that left a man fighting for his life.

[tofuman]

"Prospective teachers should never come to China without first receiving the proper "Z" or work visa from the Chinese Embassy. Some American teachers have discovered that their employers are unable to assist them in obtaining Chinese employment-based visas and other permits required for foreigners to teach lawfully in China. Consequently, you should not accept a promise by a school or organization to obtain the correct visa after your arrival. Prospective teachers should also be aware that working in China on a tourist visa is illegal and can result in large fines or even detention."

Explicit: "Fully and clearly defined, expressed, or formulated."

"Prospective teachers should never come to China without first receiving the proper "Z" or work visa from the Chinese Embassy."

From the Chinese Embassy:"(F)Visa is issued to an alien who is invited to China for a visit, an investigation, a lecture, to do business, scientific-technological and culture exchanges, short-term advanced studies or intern practice for a period of no more than six months."


"The duration of stay of a (F) visa is 30 days, which means the holder of the visa may be stay in China for up to 30 days from the date of entry"

There appears to be contradictory information on the same page.

http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/hzqz/zgqz/t84247.htm

[cj750]

I am intered in any teacher that has been find or imprisoned for working on an "F" visa. It is not that I don't beleave it to be true..it is just that there are so many people working on the "F" that there should be a lot of stories about tickets being given or income taken and confinement
I know of one incident where as a teacher was fined for working in another school other than the one she was licenced at....although this was hear say and I never really knew if it was true or not. We have a lot of legal eagles on this board that will tell you that the z is the only way to come to China..and I do not disagree. But to tell the truth, if I had taken this advice I would never have worked and traveled as much as I did..so the choice is up to the teacher/traveler. Remeber that many here post with an objectived in mind...the working on F visa and L visa can really hurt those schools that work along legal (or partial legal) basis. they cannot compete with the cost of hirring a "backpacker". The folk that work on an F visa hurts the other schools that will go to the expense and trouble to get the "Z" status...also if the ammount of teachers fall in numbers than the remaining teachers, qualified or not, have a better chance of rasing the bar and thus the status and the money. Also rember that many will tell you that the Z visa offers protection...by law...and I would say.."Don't Beleave the hype". In my experience..wheather you have a z or not will have little in the way of protection. I have pressed the subject of broken contract now and then in my last few years in China..some have been successful and some not...but what I can tell you is little in the way of enforcement goes along with problem s that yu may have . These pages are full of people who had z only to have their contract broken and the PSB/ Department of Education/Foreign Experts saying that you can go to court because the arbitration is not binding. The z visa is wise because it is legal and we all know that...wheither someone can work on an "F"..well in Beijing there are many people working on the "F" and they think that they are legal based on the information that they have...I do't really know but I would let a bunch of "ESL legal experts" choose my path for me.

[Roger]

We should be grateful to the American missions abroad for posting this information. It is true almost to the dot on the 'i' - the one bit of misinformation being that 'F' visas are valid 30 days; this may or may not be true for business visas issued in the U.S.A., but it is wrong to say so about the rest of the world, i.e. Hong Kong. You can easily get a 6 month visa.

However, the poster just before me asked a pertinent though illegitimate question: how many business visa holders have been expelled or penalised for working as teachers?

I guess we all have at best anecdotal indications of abrupt dismissals of FTs. There have in fact been a few posts here by 'victims', posts that appeared over the years. There also have been a pile of stories in the Job Information forum where people can post anything they like without even using the usernames they use in this forum. Whether you believe these accounts or not is irrelevant as the stories many people put in the world about how easy it is to make money in China and how easy it is to dodge the authorities are just as incredible (in more senses than one of the word).

Personally, I have assisted more than one guy in distress over my years here, and I invariably got away feeling I had been used by the "victim" as much as he thought the system was victimising him. In all cases, thesechaps were IIs.

A year ago, a Guangzhou daily carried an article about a Black English teacher on a business visa. The daily reported he was seen one day (picture of him to support the story), the next day his home was deserted and the PSB were preparing to evict the guy. The reporter didn't offer any opinion on why the authorities were clamping down on this poor fellow, but the experienced reader knew that that black guy was used as a scapegoat to scare all other monkeys still hurtling through the palm trees, making money illegally.

I think a good many posters here are opportunists that pas the buck of responsibility by saying or wrongly assuming that their employers ought to know how to match the deeds with legal requirements. But in point of fact, most training centre operators are clueless as regards laws, and even public school principals don't know what it takes to hire a FT. Thus, laud the American embassy's endeavour to set the knowledge deficit right. You guys who come to China to make a quick buck or to womanise and booze around - beware.

[clark.w.griswald]

Insisting upon a Z visa before arrival certainly ensures that you will be teaching legally, regardless of the gray area of F visas. This is no doubt why the embassy recommends this. There is however a major downside to this that I think the embassy chooses to ignore.

By insisting upon a Z visa before arrival, you are committing yourself to that employer. If you have never visited the school, the town, or even China before, then you are committing yourself blindly for the next year of your life. Yes, you have resolved the problem of being promised a Z visa that never materializes, but have you in fact done a deal with the devil!

It could be suggested that reputable schools would only employ teachers by having them arrive on a Z visa, so that they are entirely legal from the start. I think that this would be true. It is equally possible however that a school with a horrendous employing record among foreigners locally could use this process to secure foreigners out of country who are unaware of the problems in the school. Once you are there on a Z visa, there is not that much that you can do to get out of it.

The argument for arriving on a more flexible tourist or business visa has some merit. It enables you to check out towns and schools before committing. This is likely to ensure that you find the best fit for you, and that the school is also happy with you. You can then progress to getting a Z visa through them. The downside to this would of course be if you were unlucky enough to get involved with a school that promises Z visas but never delivers on this promise. The upside in this worst case scenario is that you have the flexibility to cut your losses and find work elsewhere.

There is risk either way, and I guess that individuals will make their own choice. I don't think that anyone can completely dismiss the opposing procedure. Personally, I would prefer to encounter problems with a school when I am on a tourist or business visa, than when I am on a Z visa issued through that school. It is this on the ground practicality that I think the embassy information doesn't consider.

[tofuman]

Clark,
I hear what you are saying; however, I'm assuming that any school that is legally authorized to offer the sponsorship for a "Z" visa is going to be fairly legitimate. Many people get into problems because the school for which they work is a shady operation that the local government would not authorize to sponsor "Z" visa holders.

I do believe, that at some level, the authorities are trying to protect foreigners from local scam artists. The contract that we have is fairly standard, and as I understand it, handed down to schools from "above."

It contains certain stipulations intended to make foreigners comfortable in China. Internet, computer, private quarters, etc. True that the contracts are not followed by those directly employing us, but there also exists a regional office for foreign teachers to air their grievances.

I was issued a "Z"visa before coming to China. On a personal level, I have been ill treated by my employers and the contract has been violated, but I have always been paid on time, provided with a heated room, a bicycle, (not in the contract) textbooks, and other basics.

I guess that in some sense, I truly am an "expert" because my training and work experience is in a specialized area that many native speakers would not be able to teach effectively. You would never know that by the way things are done here, however.

[no_exit]

[clark.w.griswald]

[tofuman]

Clark,

Your post emphasizes an important point: any FT that comes here should have options and a clear idea of what is acceptable. If minimum expectations are not met, demand that they be met and if they are not, leave.

My limited experience here has taught me that the only way to get some things done is to figuratively put a gun to the head of the administration, otherwise, they will not act in our interest. When I finally figured out that I was not being provided with a working internet connection, I said, Provide it in 10 days or I am leaving. No discussion. I can not stay here without it and the contract clearly states that one will be provided." But I endured several months of an extremely aggravating internet connection. I was repeatedly lied to and misinformed. Finally, no more excuses, get it or I'm gone. I had one in less than ten days.

My flat was a nightmare of noise from above. After several months of nothing being done, when a place became available and still no action in my behalf, I said, "Let me move or I'm going to a hotel and I expect the school to pay for it. I will no longer put up with the noise in that flat." Permission granted.

Many of us are willing to put up with a lot, but we are being played by greedy, racist, and backward people. There is no shortage of black chauffered cars at my school and plenty of money to redecorate the admin building. Why should we suffer so someone can enlarge their slush fund?

[journeyeast]

We provide a link to the US Embassy page as advice to teachers about proper Z visas, largely because most of our delegates come from the United States or are introduced by professors at universities across the US. That being said, The US embassy is just one piece of information in the gi-normous information puzzle; and is a small part of a teacher�s due-diligence.

The Public Security Bureau of Zhejiang province has a law that says in the event of unlawful employment, or in the situation where a visa is allowed to expire; that both fines and imprisonment may apply and or deportation. This is Chinese law, and it is not very dissimilar to US law.

The reality of enforcement of this law varies, we felt it was a responsible thing to post this information online. Personally, I have experienced a situation whereby I was asked to pay a fine due to the expiry of my L-visa status (while I was working at a local university in Hangzhou) , the fine was paid, the law was provided to me in English, and there was no trouble for my university relations to work with the PBS to get the appropriate Z visa appended to my passport and the appropriate Green Residence and Red Foreign Expert Book. This is going back to year 2000 and not every teacher could hope to be so lucky, that the school pays the fines and the teacher isnt given some threat or aggrivated trouble.

At best, this law can serve to aid foreign teacher having negotiation problems with their schools. It can be a stick used to leverage a school that is holding a foreign passport, or taking too much time to process the important visa.. Just imagine what a school would think if you thrust that law in front of them.. Certainly, its terms for breaking a contract to seek safe and legal emplyment elsewhere..

Today, PBSs across china seem variably tolerant to these rules, and the situation really depends on a school and teacher relationships, and how much money the PBS officer wants the department to earn from the exchange. Not insinuating that there is a corrupt system in place, but many of these PSB departments are not very well funded and an fine buys a nice dinner for the office.. and some supplies..

That being said, the reality is that many people go to China on L visas. Admittingly, we at journeyeast have also sent a few teachers to China on L visas due to time constraints, BUT - only in the situation where we have already-

a) physically inspected the school, administration and lodging
b) met with local PSB and verified the provincial permission to host foreign Teachers
c) The conversion process of the L visa to Z type was verified to be in progress.
d) there exists a reciprocating agreement in our contracts between the teachers and us, and the teachers and the schools in this situation, that virtually guarantees visa conversion in this situation, or replacement, or extension until proper visa is obtained within an adequate time frame.

Anyway, getting a Z visa is really not difficult at all. Especially if the school is legal and has relations in the appropriate government departments.. It�s maintaining the contract that is always the bear..

Its the maintaining the contract..
I said.. Its maintaining the contract and original agreements..
I said.. Its maintaining what I said that you didnt think you heard I said..
I said.. Its doing what I want you to do now, and what I thought you didnt think I said before that counts..