Job Discussion Forums

[keelychild]

hi all, great site and great info. good doogs to all.

my Qs are, if you arrive with a working holiday visa, will schools put you onto a regular working visa when they hire you? it seems it is a bit of a risk to run, going into japan with 20% taxes (working holiday visa) and maybe getting a better job, or going into japan with 5-7% taxes (working visa) but having to set yourself up pre-departure with a geos, nova type job. can anyone comment on that??
for me, i am going over for love, travel and money (in that order) so money doesn't really worry me too much, but why not maximise?!
are the nova, geos, aeon etc, really as bad as they seem to be on daves journal? if you don't mind shutting up and teaching and not being too holier-than-thou about teaching quality, can it be good? or is it better to go and look around first?
any help is welcome, people!!!!
tim

[PAULH]

[Glenski]

keelychild,

Paul has made some very valid points. I would be very interested in reading your response. In the meantime, here are some thoughts of my own.

[keelychild]

good call paul, i may not have qualified everything properly, and i may have left out a few pieces of info...

i do have a degree and a CELTA cert and a few years of teaching experience under my belt, so although i am no english lecturer i am certainly qualified enough.

perhaps i was too flippant in my description of visas. i did no tmean to infer that the schools give me a visa per se, but that they sponsor your visa if you are coming in from o/s, like with nova etc. so in essence they are the ones who "give" you the visa because i can't get a working visa myself, only a holiday working visa. so my question remains, if i come over on a WHO can it be changed by the school to a WO? (and of course i don;t mean the school itself changes it yaddayadda) or once you are in the country with a WHO you are stuck with it, failing leaving the country and coming in again?

when i say a "better job" i mean a job which doesn't seem to be considered (by many other teachers who write to daves) a market-driven, corporate, franchise, money-making machine. i mean a school that really does try to do its best to help its teachers live and work comfortably (i don't mean JUST financially). i mean a school that is not run by any of the types of characters who i see reported in the numerous pages documenting bad teaching experiences. i have seen them myself in indonesia which, while a different country and culture, does share the same need for english and hence the resulting grab for cash by "enterprising" businesspeople.

nice call on the "love, travel, money" thing paul. but don't be too literal with my words (although i guess that's understandable, them being words 'n all ) i'm a teacher, of course i'm there for the students. i love teaching and i love to try to keep my skills and my creative spirit high for them. i have learned languages and want to help others learn as well, but better. "holier-than-thou" refers to any number of teachers who like to feel as though they are gods gift to education and are unwilling to do a job which appears to be (in nova et als' cases) rather shallow, yen-directed institutions, but may be unwilling to leave. they would rather continue to suffer, and in doing so make others lives a misery as they whinge about everything, rather than working with it and trying to enjoy their experience. (again i am talking about experiences i have had and those that i have read)

when i asked "can it be good?" i was delivering a rhetorical question really. i know it can be good but a lot of commentary seems to be bad. perhaps "he (sic) who whinges last , whinges loudest", and everyone wants to have the last word? (jeez, is that what i'm doing now?! )

i hear there is some guy who has a very succinct little "coming to japan" budget on the net somewhere, does anybody know?

but thanks for the info you did give paulh. much appreciated.
tim

[PAULH]

Hi,

Just thought of a couple of other things.

1. You said money was at the bottom of your list of priorities, after love and travel. Ifso, why was your first question about how much tax you pay on a WH Visa. If money is not a worry bhow much you pay in taxes shouldnt be either, especially if its only for one year.

2. Dont quote me on this but NOVA may not hire you on a working holiday visa unless you have a degree. Again, what are your qualifications?

3. You wanted to come to Japan to work on a working holiday visa.
Two points:
a: The purpose of the working holiday visa is for travela nd experiencing the culture, not to find a full-time good paying teaching job. That is what the work visa is for. If immigration gets wind of your intention to line yourself up with some jobs before you leave your country, or to spend all your time in Japan teaching and not travelling around as intended, they may refuse to issue you a WH visa. The WHV is not the same as a sponsored work visa- dont treat it like its poor cousin as they are meant for different purposes.

b. You can only work 20-25 hours a week on a WHV but many string many jobs together, do overtime, work at several places (dont know where they get time to learn japanese, meet people and see the country but thats another story). How can you get a 'better' job than NOVA when you are doing 10 hours, 15 hours there, 5 hours somewhere else. After 12 months and no degree you are back in Australia (is doogie an Ozzie slang?)


Holier than thou......

Does that mean that is when you have actually got some experience under your belt (6 months, TOPS) , start thinking you are too good and too qualified to be doing what you are doing, are someone who has learnt all there is to know about teaching EFL, who can pass judgement on your students (listen to me I'm the native speaker on a WHV and I know it all...) and more than bosses/trainers who pay your wages?

[PAULH]

perhaps i was too flippant in my description of visas. i did not mean to infer that the schools give me a visa per se, but that they sponsor your visa if you are coming in from o/s, like with nova etc. so in essence they are the ones who "give" you the visa because i can't get a working visa myself, only a holiday working visa. so my question remains, if i come over on a WHO can it be changed by the school to a WO? (and of course i don;t mean the school itself changes it yaddayadda) or once you are in the country with a WHO you are stuck with it, failing leaving the country and coming in again?

Tim

once you have the working holiday visa it si valid for a year. That allows you to work part time and you dont need a sponsor or a degree.

I have no idea what happens if you come on a working holiday visa and then want to change to a working visa straight away. The first WHV is valid for six months and then that gives you some time to shop around, look for better jobs, as you call it and then once your visa is nearly up you can apply for a working visa with your employer as sponsor.

Immigration is rather testy about foreigners coming over and using the WHV as a stepping stone into teaching jobs and they could very well refuse to issue you a work visa, once they have issued a perfectly good WHV. Its a bit like someone getting a one year work visa, flying home after 4 months and then realising they miss Japan, and then have trouble with immigration about getting sponsorship. AllIm saying si dont bite the hand that feeds you (i dont mean your employer either- without a work visa you dont exist in Japan)


If you really dont want to go throug NOVA and AEON etc no one is making you or twisting your arm. If you dont get sponsorship for a working visa you have to come here with a wad of cash, a WHV valid for 6 months ( or a 90 day tourist visa- it will take you that long to find a job, a place to live and furnish it anyway) and then change it over to work visa.
If you feel a 6 month WHV is tool long DON'T APPLY for one. There are Americans who would give their right arm to be able to come on a WHV as you dont need a degree, and, no offence intended, you seemed to be sniffing your nose at it as its not convenient enough for you.

The only other way is to come on a tourist visa, arrange a job within 90 days and then fly to Korea and change over to a working visa. Apparently you can renew to a work visa in Japan but have never heard of anyone doing this.

Glenski has the EXCEL websheet on getting set up in Japan, pros and cons as well as costs on getting set up here so you have to ask him VERY nicely- he will only send it to you if you email him directly.

[keelychild]

glenski,
i am an australian with a BA and a CELTA, with a few years teaching experience. i am sorry i didn't include this at first. i hope it helps in getting better advice.

"[quote]i am going over for love, travel and money (in that order)[/quote]

So, if I may make some rather frank assumptions, would it be fair to say that you are primarily interested in coming to Japan to find foreign boyfriends/girlfriends (Love being first on your list)? And, even before you consider work to be important, is it also fair to say that you would rather come here just to travel about and sightsee?"

glenski, you may make as many frank assumptions as you wish given that i was not nearly as clear as i seem to need to be here. but i must say, there does seem to be a very suspicious tone to some of these replies. i will give a response however. i have been fortunate enough to have fallen in love with a wonderful japanese girl and although my studies should take me to indonesia again, i am more than happy and willing to come to japan first to meet her family and get to know them (as well as some japanese so i can communicate with them) for both of our sakes.
as for the travel component, i love travelling. i like seeing other cultures and how they work, or more to the point, how i can work/operate with them. for me, travel does not equal sightseeing, not by a long shot.
i must say, seeing as no one has commented about the money part of my reasons, that must mean that it is the lesser of the three evils (love, travel, money) dog help us all!! so, here i must say, i don't think it is fair of you to assume as you did.

"[quote]money doesn't really worry me too much[/quote]

If this is a serious statement, I hope you already have plenty of money, because Japan is the most expensive country in the world to live and travel. [u]Are[/u] you serious?"

glenski, i understand that japan is expensive, i think one would have had to have been living under a stone at the bottom of the ocean not to know this. money doesn't really worry me too much because from all teh accounts i have read and heard, teachers survive quite nicely and do manage to save money, in some cases, quite a tidy amount. however, money is not my main reason for going there, love and travel are(hopefully now understood differently to your assumptions)

"[quote]are the nova, geos, aeon etc, really as bad as they seem to be on daves journal?[/quote]

What would make you believe they are not? I'm serious. If you have already done enough research to see how badly each of those places is represented by online sources, why would you even question them? Every place has its bad points, of course, but if you have seen enough postings about any [u]one[/u] employer, let alone the [u]three[/u] that you listed, why would you doubt people?"

i would doubt people because i have seen first hand the kind of venom and vitriol that some people are want to throw about, just to make it difficult because they feel they have been insulted or mistreated, where in some cases it may be there own misgivings. also, i think people feel a stronger desire to write negative things about a place than the desire to write positive things. i will come back to this point later. i do think that if you pose the question then maybe some other people will speak out, "hey, that guy reckons nova is crap, but i really like it!" kind of thing.

"[quote]if you don't mind shutting up and teaching and not being too holier-than-thou about teaching quality, can it be good?[/quote]

I have a similar curiosity to this question you raised. What the heck are you talking about, please?"

i am talking about people who bad-mouth their school (rightly or wrongly) but stick at it in some masochistic desire to say they've done it hard, or to enjoy whinging because they think their far-more-enlightened teaching method is savagely ignored. my point is, if many schools are as money-driven as i'm led to believe, can you shut-up, put aside teaching which may be rewarded in a cambridge teaching course but seen as unworkable by a boss, and get about the job of doing the best you can with what you have and enjoy your time in japan?

as for my "is it better to look first, the risk of Working holiday visa and 20% tax vs. Working visa and 5-7% tax" question. i think you answered it well. although, "life is a risk" sounds something more fitting for a nike shirt.

so to end, i will go back to a point i made earlier about people wanting to write more if they have something negative to say, rather than positive. i may have been a little casual in my attitude the first posting, and i will surely in the future go to greater lengths to clarify my postition first, so i don't have to go through this again. but i do want to say that i have felt rather set upon here, which sort of illustrates my point. i don't feel personally insulted or hurt, more amused that a fairly innocuous post could raise this much heat (albeit a fairly low level, i admit). i guess maybe teachers in other countries are used to having people enter the profession who are just chasing tail and good times, and i know having to deal with them is hard. i lived with a guy in indo for six months who i truly wished would die a horrible death. for the same reason i have written asking "can it be good" so that other more enlightened individuals might pass comment about their good experiences. without placing myself in that category of individuals too immodestly, read my and a friend's post in the indo section [url]the pragmatic approach, what's stopping you?[/url]

chill winston.

tim

[PAULH]

when i say a "better job" i mean a job which doesn't seem to be considered (by many other teachers who write to daves) a market-driven, corporate, franchise, money-making machine. i mean a school that really does try to do its best to help its teachers live and work comfortably (i don't mean JUST financially). i mean a school that is not run by any of the types of characters who i see reported in the numerous pages documenting bad teaching experiences. i have seen them myself in indonesia which, while a different country and culture, does share the same need for english and hence the resulting grab for cash by "enterprising" businesspeople.

You dont want to teach in one of the language schools (because thats what they are, profit-driven private money making enterprises If they dont get students buying lessons they can pay teachers salaries and they go broke. You should have been here in the early 90's when a whole bunch of them went under taking the tuition fees of thousands of students with them- some students lost up to $8,000 each in lessons they bought which just evaporated). Schools like GEOS rely on a turnover of students and getting them buying more lessons. If students stop coming, they get less money coming in they cant hire more teachers or they dont renew your visa and you're out of a job, buddy.

English conversation here is a Billion yen business and many of the bosses of language schools are not English teachers, many of them dont even speak English. Many of the trainers even probably arrived 6 months to a year before you did and have little in the way of solid qualifications but they have learnt the 'system' and how to work it (as they perceive it) to their advantage.

The guys who run NOVA know how to run a business (maybe not altogether ethically but many foreigners coming here are no saints either) , how to hire people and provide thousands of staff with a paycheck. If there is something wrong with that no one is making you work for them. You may have to compromise some what in the beginning when you arrive as at first you are just 'another fresh gaijin with a BA off the plane' and you may need to prove yourself, or network etc to find other lines of work more to your liking.




Im a bit biased, but you probably mean a kind of job like 'proper' teaching a high school, a trade school a junior college or at a university, rather than a private language schools. you will have 20-30 students to a class, a balckboard, proper curriculum, decent salry and vacations etc (e.g part time at university you get about 5 months off, fully paid)
there are some excellent conversation schools that are small and you dont ehar about from overseas but you dont ehar about them as the teachers there dont want someone coming in taking their jobs away).

With a degree and a TESOL qualification and previous teaching experience you have a better chance than most of finding reasoble paying jobs or even high school jobs etc- most of those come through developing networking skills, meeting the right people, making yourself known and developing your resume etc.

[PAULH]

Tim

just to give you some background about us- Glenski has been in Japan about 5 years (this is his 2nd stint here) teaches at a high school and privates. He is the resident ESL guru on teaching and living in japan. When He doesnt have answer (not often) I will usually pitch in with a response. Glenski though meaning well can be a bit testy with people who have a less than sincere attitude about coming to work here and see Japan as a place to make a quick buck, get laid or otherwise not really take themselves or their vocation seriously. Its nothing personal but he does tend to like people to give as much factual information as possible rather than appear to be hiding something (how can i teach in japan without a degree, how canI get a work visa, Im 19 and dont have experience etc)

I have a few years on Glenski, been here since 1987, have an MEd and teach at a university. Pays good, but I have had to work like a dog to earn a decent wage and get a decent position- its all relative to what you want, how serious you are, what you are looking for, but IMO no one is going to take you seriously when you are here working part time at 3 or 4 places on a working holiday visa- that is the bottom of the salry totem pole if you ask me and there is no job security or advancement whatso ever.

[Glenski]

keelychild/tim,

Sorry if my queries sounded "suspicious" as you said, but I think you realize now that with limited information at hand, I didn't know where you were coming from with some issues. As Paul has pointed out, I'm big on getting the whole story; it stems from my science background. And, with the many people coming here more on a lark than on serious teaching, your comments could've been taken either way. I tried to write my questions as professionally as possible, and I must say that between Paul and myself, you have received advice in the most professional manner. I'm not patting myself on the back, just letting you know that there are plenty others here who would've flamed your post with nasty remarks that had the same intent as mine.

[Celeste]

Here comes another 2 cents----

Keely- I haven't worked at any of the big schools in Japan, but some of my friends currently work for them. The ones at ECC seem happy enough. The ones at Nova seem discouraged from the hectic schedule. If you already have experience as an EFL teacher, I think that you would be somewhat frustrated working for one of the bigger schools. (Sort of like a 5star chef working for McDonald's). While you will encounter a bigger tax bite with a working holiday visa, look upon your first year as exactly that: a working holiday. Then as you make contacts and find your niche, you can set up a suitable job for your second year and save more money. If you work only part time at a school on your working holiday visa, then you will give yourself a lot of time to teach privates. I would never counsel anyone to evade taxes, but I will point out that rarely does anyone I know pay taxes on private lessons for which they have received cash.

[Sunpower]

WOW!

Paul/Glenski: You two were total asssholes to this guy.

[Glenski]

Sunpower,

Wow! You were totally constructive in your criticism. And, so helpful to Tim at the same time.

[ruggedtoast]

Unless youve got cash to burn I really dont recommend coming here on a tourist visa, I did that and had some of the worst 6 weeks of my life.