Job Discussion Forums

cogitocamel · Joined: 18 Dec 2004 Posts: 8

Dear All,

I have just recently been put in a very awkward position and I would like to hear what you have to say/advise on what I should now do.

I arrived in Taipei almost two months ago and spent the first few weeks settling down, looking for a place to live and a job that could give me the required work permit. I found a school (which I will not name yet) that offered me a couple of hours' work per day and said they could somehow get the work permit by saying I worked more than I did (OK, I can hear you saying that I was foolish from the start and that this evident fraud should have been enough warning about what they were all about, but I thought that as they were so open about their proposed illegal activities, I could actually trust them). The job started after Chinese new year. I worked for just about three weeks, of which only the last week was withing the contract period. I gave them all the necessary documents for the work permit (passport, degree, health check), they sait it was being processed. I was quite happy with the job. I didn't come to Taiwan to earn loads of money, so I was content to only work a few hours a day. I liked the school, and I thought it liked me.

The contract said that i would be given a warning if I did something wrong. It also said I would have to be given three warnings before they fined me or fired me. I was never given anything even close to a warning. Once, a Chinese co-teacher sat through part of my lesson. Afterwards, she said it was "very interesting": that is the only comment anyone ever made me about the way i taught.

Anyway, last Wednesday, after work, one of the higher staff (but NOT the director himself) comes to see me and tells me that I am not the person they need for the job, that the kids find my lessons boring, that the parents are threatening to pull their children out of school, and that thay are very sorry but Friday will be my last day at work.
This of course came as a shock. I never saw it coming and still don't really understand why I got fired. Other expat teachers have said it is probably something to do with money and not really with my actual teaching style. Still.....this isn't really what matters right now.

What matters is that they let me go just two days before they were supposed to give me my work permit, and just ten days before my 2 month visitor visa expires. So basically, within a week, I have had to transform myself from someone who is settling down to a comfortable situation in a great place, to someone who suddenly has to flee the country. Needless to say, I am not in the best of moods these last few days...

Knowing that they were in the wrong, I tried to get them to help me. I took on more of a "please please help me!" attitude at first and they said they would give me the work permit anyway, so that I'd have enough time to find something else (hurray!). That was Thursday.
Friday: they say there's a problem with the application. I graduated from a French university, so they say I have to translate the degree. I do this.
Monday: they say that after all, I do not have enough working hours to get a working permit, so I'll have to leave the country whatever happens.
The latest news is me asking "So basically, the school will do nothing, right?" and them answering "I'll speak to the director and see what we can do." I'm going to call them again later.

I intend to be a bit more threatening next time. Tell them I'll report them to the Labour ministry and post warnings on the net. But I don't know what this will do.

As it is, I now have to get out of the country before the end of the week and have very little money.

If you'd like to react on this information, please do.
Here are my questions:

1. I will fly to Bangkok, on Thursday I think. What sort of visa do I get to come back? I have a friend in a big Taiwanese government office who might be able to get me an invitation for a business visa. How does this work? Is it worth it?

2. Not having a work permit, do I have the possibility to engage in legal action? The school purposely delayed my application, so this is surely one of its major crimes; is there any way to fight them? Also - this is a bit peculiar - there is a "non-disclosure" clause in my contract, that basically means that the very fact of mentioning it to you has already invalidated the contract... Do you know anything about this? Is it at all legal? It seems to me it makes any attempt at legal action futile. A sort of Catch 22...

3. This nasty problem with my school has soured my vision of life here. I was originally planning on staying here for some time (ie: over a year) but am now having doubts, and might just stay a few months, until I have made enough money to cover relocation. I repeat that I didn't come here for the money, but for the experience of living here. In this case, would it even be worth getting the ARC? Wouldn't it be possible to stay on the above-mentioned business visa (if I can get it that is) and leave in six months?

If you have any other ideas on what I should do, please feel free to tell me.

Thank you all,

cogitocamel

TaoyuanSteve · Joined: 05 Feb 2003 Posts: 1028 Location: Taoyuan

What has happened to you is about the worst that could happen to teachers here. It especially sucks because you are in a vulnerable position your first little while here. You don't have a lot of money and they led you to believe they were going to get you a work permit. I feel for you.

What to do? Well, you could try talking to the foreign affairs police. Explain the situation and see if there is some kind of leverage for getting compensation from your employer. Do you have a contract from your school? What is the penalty for breaking contract on the part of the employee. If there is, ask for a similar amount. Definitely press them about the difficult situation they are putting you in. Try to push for some kind of severance or compensation for the short notice dismissal.

You may be out of luck in the end, unfortunately. I hope you get something and things improve for you in future. Best wishes.

clark.w.griswald · Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 2056

Let me start by saying that it is unfortunate that your first work experience here in Taiwan was a negative one. This certainly happens, but fortunately for most of us things tend to work out in the end.

I am not so sure that you have a case for breach of contract, but the wording of your actual contract could be helpful. Most employment contracts here have what is often called 'a trial period' which may be anything up to a couple of months in duration. The deal is that the school can get rid of you, or you can leave, during this period of time without penalty either way. Depending upon the contract there may be a stipulation as to the notice period given, but in almost all cases any notice period within this trial period would be very short and not inline with the standard six to eight weeks required during the contract proper. The fact that the school has actually given you a weeks notice and not just asked you to leave immediately is likely an attempt at satisfying this requirement for giving notice whether that was required under the contract or not.

As unfair as it all seems, I am not so sure that the school would really have a case to answer. Even if there is no mention of a trial period in the contract that you signed, I believe that this is pretty much a standard within employment contracts in Taiwan and may be just taken as a given by any authorities that you may involve in the case.

cogitocamel · Joined: 18 Dec 2004 Posts: 8

Re-Clark: Yes, this is more or less what I expected, so don't worry about breaking any bad news to me, I'm over that.

There is nothing in the contract about a trial period and it clearly states they have to give me three warnings before they dismiss me. But, as you say, there might be some commonly accepted implicit trial period, who knows...

What about the business visa? You say people will let me down: are you reffering to my friend here? He's not a casual acquaintance but a good friend of my parents, who used to live in Europe, so I'd trust him to come through on any promises... And plenty of people manage to get jobs without ARC's and are never checked, right? I understand it might not be a good idea for the long term, but if I only stay a few months...?
If I do decide to try the business visa thing, does someone know what the procedure is? What the invitation should be like? Whether I can get it in Bangkok?

Also, I don't think you're right about my "perfect profile". Yes, I'm a native speaker. Yes, I have a degree. Yes, I'm young, blond, blue-eyed. Yes, I have teaching experience. But I'm British, and I've had plenty of telephone calls end very quickly with them saying "sorry, we prefer north americans" (and this is very frustrating of course, because I'm sure it wouldn't do for their pupils to speak with a heavy southern drawl, and I have a very clear, BBC type accent). Urghh!

What about the idea of going to the Foreign Affairs police? Surely, as I was working without a work permit or ARC (though made to believe I'd get one) that would make me an offender too, no? Can I talk to them about this without risk? Perhaps, you're right that the school didn't break any rules by dismissing me when they did, but didn't they break a rule by making me work without a permit in the first place (in the contract it says they will provide the teacher with assistance in obtaining the ARC) ???

But in the end, even if I don't get anything out of this personally, I do fell an ethical obligation to fight them, and would not like to see someone else get tricked like I was. You see, if only they'd said they might not keep me, I'd have been able to find something to fall back upon, but there simply wasn't enough time... I will definitely try to post some warnings on all the relevant sites.

I'm an intelligent person and I have ample experience living and travelling the world over. I hate to think what could happen to someone more naive than myself...

Thank you for all the help and good wishes!

TaoyuanSteve · Joined: 05 Feb 2003 Posts: 1028 Location: Taoyuan

It may be that you have no recourse. It may turn out that you do. You certainly can look into it, if it's something you want to do. You were in the process for obtaining an ARC, or at least you were led to believe so. If you feel mistreated and lied to, go and get an opinion from the foreign affairs police. If it turns out you have a case (and I'm not saying you either do or don't) and you want to proceed, you are going to want to have legal residence (ie don't do the business visa thing if you want to fight this).

If I were you I'd tell your ex-employers that you taking a job with them led you to believe you were getting a work visa. You now don't have any time left on your visitor visa and must do a visa trip. Seeing how it is because they are dismissing you at this inconvenient time that you are having to do this costly trip, they should compensate you for your trouble.

In the end, though, there may be little you can do. Get an opinion if you think you have been mistreated. In the end, this'll all pass and you'll get a better job. You might be better off simply putting this experience behind you sooner rather than later.

clark.w.griswald · Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 2056

I have looked into the Labor Law for you and have found the following which seems to be at least partially relevant to your situation. Unfortunately none of this seems to provide you with any support in a claim:

cogitocamel · Joined: 18 Dec 2004 Posts: 8

But even if the labour laws don't play in my favour where the dismissal without prior warning is concerned, doesn't the school still need to provide sufficient reasons for dismissal? As I said before, no one has actually said anything concrete to me about my teaching methods... If they can hire and fire people after three months with impunity, what is to stop them from using this as an easy way to hire&fire teachers without ever going through the hassle of work permits and ARC's?

And if they can do this, then how do I make sure it won't happen again? Do I have to ask my employers to sign a paper every day, saying they will not fire me tomorrow?

Seems awfully precarious.......

Once again, thanks for the advice and the research into the laws of this at times confusing country.

clark.w.griswald · Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 2056

Let me say that I agree with TaoyuanSteve as far as seeking professional advice if you want to pursue this. There may be something to it that a legal person could help you with. While the advice on boards such as this one can be helpful, it is really only the opinions of the people making the posts, myself included.

Aristotle · Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 1388 Location: Taiwan

Common story but there are ways of dealing with it.
Make photo copies of your time card, contract and student name list (just give the students a spot quiz and make the first question their telephone number, address and Chinese name).
If you have no written contract get the business cards with Chinese names and license plates of your supervisors vehicles. Land line telephone numbers of your supervisor home and business are also useful.

First you need to decide what you want from the school. Your job there is gone and you won't get it back.
Before you start negotiating with them get a voice recording device and put it in your pocket, record you conversations with your employer as they tend to avoid writing down things because to them, a spoken lie is acceptable but a written lie is not.

Under Taiwan's toothless and widely ignored labor laws your employer is supposed to give you 10 days notice prior to termination if you work there less than a year, 20 days if you work there more than a year. Failure to do that they have to give you those days pay.
Go to the FAP and ask for a visa extension. They will usually give you one if you have a plane ticket with a departure date no more than 90 days from your arrival date. Tell them you couldn't get a flight out until the day on the ticket.

Before you ask for the severance pay take the pay they offer but don't sign anything. After you have your pay in hand ask for the severance pay and don't sign anything until they give you the severance pay.
If they outright refuse get the number of their business license off the wall in the office or reception area. It is usually in Chinese numbers so if you can't read it, take a picture.
Then call Council of Labor Affairs ( 02-8770-1866) ask for their fax number or get it off their website (unfortunately website is not in English).
http://www.cla.gov.tw/cgi-bin/SM_theme?page=41d35566
Fax a written statement to the CLA including any and all information.
Then call the National Corruption Reporting Hot line and ask them for a fax number (0800-422-051).
Send them a fax as well. It makes it more difficult for the CLA to ignore you if you have another agency involved.
It would help if you could get the fax translated into Chinese but you might get away with just English in Taipei.
That should get you paid and on your way to the next job a lot wiser.
If it doesn't work please contact me at:
[email protected]
Congratulations you have been initiated into the ways of ESL teaching on Taiwan.
Good luck,
A.

cogitocamel · Joined: 18 Dec 2004 Posts: 8

Thank you for the advice, it makes things a lot clearer, although I shall have to wait until I get back into the country to do anything I think.

When I originally got my 2 month visitor visa, in Singapore, in January, it wasn't that easy. I had to produce papers showing I had sufficient funds and oher such details. If I didn't, they wouldn't give me a visa, saying that the 2 week landing permit is enough.
Of course I don't know if the situation is the same in Bangkok, but I don't want to get stuck there! Do you know anything about this? Is there anything I should do here, in Taipei, before I leave?

cogitocamel · Joined: 18 Dec 2004 Posts: 8

RE: Aristotle: Do you know where I can find the exact passage of the Labour law that says about the severance compensation? If you have it please send me a link. Thanks again for your help.

clark.w.griswald · Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 2056

cogitocamel · Joined: 18 Dec 2004 Posts: 8

I gather that the previous post is mainly directed at Aristotle, and as I know little of the greater scope of this debate, I shan't comment on it. Clark, I think everything you've said is correct, except perhaps for the fact that I was not given a week's notice, but 18 hours... I guess it's just a detail anyway.

What is foremost in my mind right now is getting out of here, acquiring a new visa and getting back. I am worried that I will not be able to get anything more than a two week landing permit, seeing that I have no proof of a good reason to be here... The school could give me the receipt for the work permit (which they haven't canceled yet): should I take this to the consulate and tell them I'm waiting for documents to be processed??? The school said I shouldn't. The school says the only way I can get another 2 month visa is if I become a language student and join a local Chinese class (which, frankly speaking, I can't really afford at present): is this true??? Then again, as I said before, I could still try and get an invitation for a business visa, but I'd have to hurry. Would this work???
Are there any simpler ways of getting the 60 days' visitor visa in Bangkok?

Thanks all,

T

clark.w.griswald · Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 2056

TaoyuanSteve · Joined: 05 Feb 2003 Posts: 1028 Location: Taoyuan

Clark, he does say a Chinese class would a burden for him. He's not likely to have 100k.

OP guy. Crack open today's China post and go to the back pages. Look for the ads for the language schools. You'll find one called CLI. They offer visa advice and extensions. Their fee which includes classes, should you choose to attend, is only 4500nt. Go there before your visa expires and they may be able to get you an extension. Anyway, they'll give you better advice on your visa needs than you can get here. Find out what your options are. Get an extension or what-have-you and start over. Get a new job or just stay long enough to make enough to move on. Up to you. The only people who can tell you, definitively, whether you have a case for compensation or not are the foreign affairs police. The law doesn't work here the way it does in the west. Even if Clark were to post some law here that said you didn't have a case, you may still have one. Chinese have a sort of fuzzy logic about these kinds of things. It's the same kind of logic that demands a car driver compensate the family of a scooter rider killed ina collision. Doesn't matter that the scooter driver was going the wrong way down a one-way street. It's just the right thing to do. Go to the Foreign affairs police and tell them what happened. They may help you get a severence pay. They may also tell you that you have no case. But either way, you'll find out more from them than you will here. Good luck.