Job Discussion Forums

[Nomad Dan]

THanks for the reminders on the Algeria situation...It seems that I did meet some expats in Saudi who had worked in Algeria...Never travelling without armed body guards etc. Just sounded horrible.
I wonder if the Saudis in general fear this digression happening? They must surely know that it will go to hell without westerners there...
I knew many "westernized" Saudis who would offer condolences over 911 while their children were being taught that 911 was the Evil Empire getting what it deserved etc. A double standard to say the least. In a way, these terrorist attacks might mean a country getting what it deserves...Don't we all agree that it will all go back to sand???
I met many very nice people in KSA, but you eventually do have to come to reality.
Quite an amazing place.
Take care all
NoMad Dan

[Stephen Jones]

-----"They must surely know that it will go to hell without westerners there..."-----

I feel you're overestimating the importance of "Westerners".

As for the evil empire, it's not just the Saudis who think that about the US. There are very few countires in the world where the American government is not considered to be the major threat to world peace.

[scot47]

If the Indians, Filipinos and Pakistanis left they would be in deep doodoo. But 30,000 Brits and about the same number of Americans ? I do not think the place would collapse.

[Pilot in Command]

It may not collapse, but it would have a major impact.

While we're on the subject, I read an article on Arab News this week that, following the attacks on Monday, western airlines are booked OUT of Saudi Arabia for the next few weeks

[johnslat]

Dear Pilot in Command,
I imagine those bookings are, in the main, dependents - the wives and kids getting out ASAP. That's my guess, anyway. But when their contracts are up this time, a lot of the Daddies may be taking exits only, too. I agree with scot47 and with you - a major exodus of Westerners wouldn't cause a collapse, but it'd sure have a BIG impact. And Stephen, the present US governement is considered a major threat to world peace by a lot of US citizens , too - not just people in other countries. One thing I intend to do when I get back this July ( exit only ) is to spend a lot of time and effort trying to ensure that those whackos don't get another 4 years in 2004 to screw up the world.
Regards,
John

[Nomad Dan]

I totally agree with you, John. Here in the heartland, it is frightening to speak out against the current administration but boy but have they pissed everyone off. I certainly did not mean to imply that only Fundamentalist Islamic groups are against the United States,Stephen. And as for my attitude with foreign labor there, my angst against the place not functioning without westerners comes mostly through talking with lots of foremen and engineers both Aramcon and contractors, who work on major projects with the Oil Industry. Many of them think that it would create mayhem were Saudis running the show.

The Saudis may have the wasta and the titles, but that doesn't mean they keep the crude pumping. I am not an engineer and can't say. Some of these 30,000 are in charge of keeping things from going BOOM. There may be enough Indians trained to do that...I dunno.

Maybe you are right.

Nomad Dan

[Nomad Dan]

And Stephen, other countries may think that of us, but they are not blowing up our citizens. Anybody who thinks that the US "deserved" the shot on September 11 be damned.
Nomad dan

[johnslat]

Far be it from me to see world politics in a Manichean, black and white, good guys versus the bad guys way. My view is that there's black: terrorists like Osama, who deliberately target non-combatants, and homicidal loonies like Saddam - and grey: that bunch of power-hungry greedheaded dummies in Washington, D.C. The USA is, in my opinion, on a " bad trip " right now, but I don't see Bush and Co. as " evil ". I reserve that category for Osama, Saddam and their ilk.
Regards,
John

[scot47]

In Iran before 1979 I am sure there were lots of people talking about collapse. The westerners left but the economy did not collapse.

In Saudi today many of the westerners are doing non-essential, non-oil-related work. (EFL ! Medicine. Accountancy. General Management. ) A departure by all of the westerners would cause problems but we are not vital to the economy.

[Nomad Dan]

As for why the fundamentalist hate us, it all seems to boil down to Israel. I am still not convinced on that one.
As John said, things aren't always black and white. That is an OLD family feud and I don't see the violence ever ending and we are in the fray.

I agree with what was said about ESL teachers medical personnel etc being non essential. I think Aramco is a different animal. The company is still very American. It can't cease to be that very easily. Western contractors are essential. Cheney may not need the contracts anymore since his boys will be reconstructing Iraq.
ND

[nimra_ghalat]

That's always a good question, "what would happen if all the expats left..." Western expats involved in industry constantly brag that the Kingdom would stop functioning if they left. I know that the country would definitely go down the tubes if all the Indian secretaries were sent home.

The plant I worked at began to hire Indian engineers as replacements of some westerners as a cost-cutting measure, but the dynamic between Saudis and Indians is a lot different than that between them and Westerners. Indians are pushed around there, so it's hard to imagine them being listened to.

Many Saudis also told me they preferred to have American managers since they were fair and competent. Certainly Saudi managers in general haven't, from what I have seen, taken advantage of their more experienced Western colleagues and instead just hand over the running of the plant to them. Have you ever sat in on an all-Saudi meeting? Geez! Their could be a new generation of better educated, harder-working Saudis coming up through the ranks (I know some), but that would require the old guard (who typically only have high school education) to retire first.

[scot47]

If you want to see an enterprise that has been saudi-ized take a look at Saudi Arabian Airlines. 26,000 employees where a reasonable number would be one third of that. And now they talk about privatising it !!!!!

[Nomad Dan]

My "boss" in Saudi Arabia was a man by the name of Mister George. He was probably not a bad man, but he was forced to do some really dirty work for the Saudis. He terrorized the poor phillipinos working in the place and was constantly doing battle with irrate Brits and Yanks alike over the handling of this or that. His partner in crime was the sinister Mister Venugopal...Who, again was not all sinister, but the company forced him to perform all of these evil deeds.
The interpersonal dynamics in Saudi Arabia must surely be unique on the planet. I will never forget the cattle herding experience of having my Aramco ID renewed...It was almost as dehumanizing as getting booked into a really backwater County Jail.
Nomad Dan