Job Discussion Forums

[cancunense]

Hi, all of you "China" experts. I am investigating 2 different schools and their summer programs, as I prefer to more or less test the waters for a short period of time before I commit to a longer time frame. I have not interviewed with either of these schools yet, but the pay difference between what AES and EF are offering seems to be really huge. Summer program in AES pays 12,000, and EF pays 4,000. How can that be?? AES's program is 2 weeks longer than EF's, but that seems to be the only difference that I can come up with. Am I missing something here? Does anyone have any helpful advice for me? And, yes, I have read many of the previous postings concerning both of these schools....Thanks!

[JamesD]

Check the number of hours? Check the perks and such to see what each provides, maybe EF doesn't give housing? Does EF require that you are already in China?
4,000 for one month sounds a little low but not outrageous if you're already in China. If you are coming over just for the summer the 12,000 from AES is probably to cover your travel.

[Peter]

Both schools over the years have been under heavy fire; check out the Job In fo Journal, though if you are here for just a summer job......hopefully you will get paid

[Roger]

Well, Peter, you are rarely wrong but this time you did slip up! You claim that both schools have received much flak over the years. To my sense of proportions, this is not true in the case of AES.

We have recently been treated to some criticising of AES , though the jury is still out. I personally think it was a one-man show that was trying to ruin the name of the whole AES organisation, which, if you ask my opinion, is highly unethical!

As for EF, few people have had substantive complaints. The schools routinely come in for overworking their teachers (40 hours a week!), requiring males to wear formal dress and similar complaints.

I would agree with that poster who said that you have to put the salary offered in relation to the number of hours you put in during their summer course. ANd: Do they legally spnsor you (work visa, housing, residence permit, work permit?).
To be sure, 4000 is very low pay in summer! They would have to throw in a lot of other material benefits - a paid one-week tourist trip for example with food and booze at the company's expense! And I would still ask: Where is the airfare?

[Bertrand]

EF's offer of 4,000 RMB a month seems VERY low considering they were desperate for staff in China even before SARS. I would simply ask EF - or rather, tell them - that you require AT LEAST 7,500 RMB a month PLUS return airfare. They will still make money out of you as in the summer months you will be teaching 3 or 4 two hour lessons 6 days a week. If they don't play ball then fine, go elsewhere. It is, after all, 'a free market'. Look at firms like English for Asia that are sure to take away a large percentage of EF's current business. You will START at 7,500 RMB a month with them in Shenzhen.

If I were you, I would avoid EF (Erection First) - and all it's associated 'sisters' and 'daughters'.

[cancunense]

Thanks to all of you for your helpful advice! Wish me luck!

[arioch36]

While EF has had more flak, All the posters in my recent memory have not been kind to AES, sometimes arguing with Roger over this. People who had actually worked with AES

4,000 is an abysmal amount for a month of summer work , unless you are only teaching ten hours

12,000 is a good amoiunt, unless you work 40 hours a week, and have to pay for your own place. Details?

[cancunense]

If I read the details correctly, AES requires 30 hrs. a week and provides a shared apartment. EF requires 40 hrs. a week and also provides an apartment. The actual pay for EF, after checking again, is 4500. AES is 12,000. So I am really still baffled by the huge difference here!

[M3tt]

If you would like information on AES just drop me a line by PM and I'll answer any questions you have.

My name is Mike and I work for AES in the central office. After the recent attacks on the company here on the forum I thought it was time to have a little more open discussion on all ESL schools. I don't mean this to be any type of advertising, just a notice that serious straightforward questions will be answered.
I'll answer any direct questions regarding the schools and any complaints we may have received by anyone who will use their own name and email but I would like to reserve the right not to answer nonspecific complaints and rants. Who knows? Might even start a trend.

Mike Threatt
[email protected]

[cancunense]

:DDear Mike,
I can't get my Yahoo account to send out mail today (I live in Mexico right now, and this is a common problem...), so I can't respond to you privately, but I wanted to acknowledge your posting. I have read all the comments on this board about AES, and although several have "bashed" the school, I do feel that the positive comments far outweigh the negative. I for one am extremely impressed by the salary AES is offering in comparison to what EF has initially quoted, and I am equally impressed by your website and the details of the contract, expectations, etc. that Linda sent me. I remain truly shocked that there can be such disparity between the salaries being offered by AES and EF, but I have a phone interview with EF next week, so hopefully, they will be able to explain more. My paperwork to AES should be arriving at the central office in the next couple of days, so I look forward to more communication with you all at that point. Thanks for taking the time to follow this thread and for being willing to clear up any misconceptions and unanswered questions.

Sincerely,
Cancunense

[MyTurnNow]

Best answer: neither of the above.
There are a zillion schools and a zillion jobs here, especially in the wake of the SARS madness. Some of them are pretty awful and some of them are great. Shop around. In addition to Dave's try some of the locally-based websites such as www.thatsbeijing.com or www.thatsshanghai.com. They list a lot of jobs not seen anywhere else and some are pretty attractive. Despite their local base they also list jobs elsewhere in China.

EF seems to have a lot of problems; I know of these primarily second-hand but there is no shortage of them. I've heard ugly rumors of neckties. Their hours are long and their pay is substandard.

AES directly ripped me off. They also have their share of problems and unhappy ex-employees...and an ugly habit of trying to suppress anyone who suggests this. You will earn every fen of that "high" salary, and more, through long, intensive, kid-packed weeks.

And no, Roger, I am not on a one-man crusade. I definitely do not like AES but I am not just here to "ruin their name". My discussions of them are a small minority of my total posts here and to my memory I have never started a thread about them. But when they come up, I will speak my mind. So my ethics are OK, thank you...especially when compared to those some some others in this thread. You, however, seem really eager to tout them despite saying you've never worked there yourself.

MT

[M3tt]

[quote="MyTurnNow"]
AES directly ripped me off.[/quote]


MyTurnNow,
This is Mike with AES. I don't see how this can ever be resolved if you don't contact us directly. It's really not possible for me to answer an anonymous attack as I don't have any information on your situation.

If you would post or at the very least least privately email to me your name, when you worked for us, the location, and the specifics of why this money is owed to you I will be able to respond and we could possibly resolve whatever happened. Until then there's not much I can do.

Mike Threatt
[email protected]

[MyTurnNow]

Quite a number of attempts to resolve this were made at the time and all fell upon contemptuously deaf ears. I do not believe that there is any real chance of a reasonable discussion with these people, otherwise it would have been taken when offered.

And again, I am not here to "attack" anyone. But I will call 'em if they come over the plate.

MT

[Bertrand]

[quote="cancunense"]
" I for one am extremely impressed by the salary AES is offering in comparison to what EF has initially quoted, and I am equally impressed by your website and the details of the contract, expectations, etc. that Linda sent me. I remain truly shocked that there can be such disparity between the salaries being offered by AES and EF, but I have a phone interview with EF next week, so hopefully, they will be able to explain more."

A phone interview with EF China? Well, this sounds like your chance to ask them why they are paying such low salaries. You could also ask them why different schools offer different hours and salaries (cf., e.g., EF Fuzhou and the various EF Shanghai school adverts in which a 5 or sometimes even a 4 day week is offered (normal EF contract is a 6 day week).

Maybe you should also ask them what qualifications the management of EF China has. Ask them for example, what subject(s) their global academic operations manager has his degree in. (That should be an interesting answer!) The interview will most likely be with Karen Zhou. Why don't you ask her about why they have non-native speakers as DOSs (e.g., EF Uramqui's DOS is from Columbia and has terrible English) or why even when DOSs are found to be defrauding head office and staff - including teachers - such as the ex-DOS of EF Huizhou - they are not dismissed. There are many questions you can ask her in order to bump up your salary.

[senor boogie woogie]

Hola!

I have been in this industry now for almost three years in Korea, Taiwan and now China, and I have learned through trial and error one fact, DO NOT work for a chain school. Chain schools will work you to death, you will not have weekends off, will not have full holidays and they are restrictive about days off. EF makes their people work 40 hours in the office and 25 hours in the classroom, making about 70 RMB an hour. They also make you wear a tie. I can't wear ties. I have no neck.

AES will hire anybody that e-mails them. BUT, I have heard a lot of positives about their company and they are based in Dalian, which is supposedly a great seaside city in northern China. If you have to choose between the two, choose AES. Tell them you want Dalian. No Dalian, no go (excuse the Chinglish)

There are many summer programs in Japan, Taiwan and China. There are many here in China. One is through www.chinatefl.com, which is based here in Hangzhou. I work one of my positions through this agent. They offer a summer program that you may be interested in, and they are flexible about hours and days of service. I would usually tell you not to talk to agents, but the owner Helen is pretty reliable and I have only heard one bad thing about her.

Everybody is running home because of SARS. This means that us "Old China"hands more valuable here, and we can make some money because of the lack of competition.

I am currently employed at a college and a kindergarten (I love children). I make 13,000 a month between the two jobs (about 25 hours a week, including travel) and I have a three day weekend. Better than EF, and better than my old DOS who is slagging at a Shane School here in Hangzhou, putting in as many hours and making 4000 lessa month.

I promise you, I'm not a great teacher, but I know the system here.

SENOR