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The Chinese Protests
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Cshannon



Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
We all want Japan to win becuz lets face it...we all mostly live in Japan, and at the moment the knife is pointed in our direction, not Chinas not Americas, not North Koreas...

...but Japans.


True, I do want Japan to win. Because I don`t like the Chinese government, nor do I want to see a strong red China. As for the knife thing, really I`m not worried. You seem to have your mind made up that China is such a serious force to be reckoned with, and that we`re just in denial. Sorry, but I don`t think so. I feel you are oversimplifying it and failing to see the big picture. Just because China is irate, doesn`t mean it can do anything. China isn`t in such a position to call the shots (I guess we`ll have to wait to see how the UN security council thing goes though). China is not America, or even Russia. You could almost say it is merely China.
Japan is more powerful than China at this time. Period. I will agree that Japan`s economy needs China`s markets, but still, Japan has more than China, and China has more to lose.
Burning flags doesn`t amount to much. How many American flags are burnt everyday around the world? Do you think the American gov`t is overly concerned? Mind you China is a notch or two above the third world, but not that much.

Basically I`ll agree with you that we are biased in favor of Japan. So what? That doesn`t make us incorrect. What are you really trying to say?
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Birdog3344



Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 126
Location: Osaka, Japan

PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Japanese exports to China rose for the sixth straight year in 2004, surging 29.0% year on year to US$73.83 billion. This rise was fueled by an increase in exports of parts and materials...according to a report released today by the Japan External Trade Organization (JETRO).


Japan was one of the first countries to support China's entrance into the World Trade Organization and is the country's largest investor. Cultural exchanges are also frequent between the two countries. The dynamic of this relationship is very complicated.
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malcoml



Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 215
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look I really don't want to see Japan go to war with China, look at all this good stuff we will miss out on.

http://japanvisitor.com/jc/sex/glossary.html

Have a read of the site and tell me how accurate it is. We are not looking for just opinions here but fact as this site has been complied by people who are on the ground level.
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Synne



Joined: 06 Apr 2004
Posts: 269
Location: Tohoku

PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cshannon wrote:
Basically I`ll agree with you that we are biased in favor of Japan. So what? That doesn`t make us incorrect. What are you really trying to say?


..Im trying to say what you just said and agreed with...

...Im sorry but you really need a new angle; becuz flaming about the same thing over and over again is getting a little tiresome.

I know your opinion, but no matter what you say it will always remain JUST an opinion, as will mine, and the posters before this, and every single posters on this forum.

Youve said what you wanted to say about six times now with repeated arguments, so lets let this topic move on.
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AndyH



Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 417

PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In response to Synne, I want Japan to "win" if it ever comes to a confrontation because:

a: The government of China has proven itself to be a regional bully, not to mention a gross violator of the human rights of its own people.

b: Yeah, I live and work in Japan, but I can leave at anytime. On the other hand, in the two and a half years I've been here, I've met many wonderful people, and I fear for their future well-being. My three-year old students should not have to pay for the sins of Hideki Tojo, 60 years after the fact!

c: Undoubtedly, a war between China and Japan would include my country, the US, on the side of Japan. I disagree with a lot of my government's policies, but it is still my country!

To echo cshannon, we really don't have much to worry about regarding China at this time, but we should be concerned about the way things are going. China shouldn't worry us now, but we should do whatever we can TO KEEP IT THAT WAY!
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Synne



Joined: 06 Apr 2004
Posts: 269
Location: Tohoku

PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AndyH wrote:
c: Undoubtedly, a war between China and Japan would include my country, the US, on the side of Japan. I disagree with a lot of my government's policies, but it is still my country!


Even I am beginning to wonder how far America can stretch its arm these days...

...they have their hands in too many cookie jars if you ask me.
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AndyH



Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 417

PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

US military doctrine has tried to take into account the scenario of having to commit to two simultaneous conflicts in different regions. Hence, the need for Marine divisions on both coasts of the US as well as Okinawa and Hawaii, in addition to Naval fleets assigned to different parts of the globe. However, Bush's hair-brained invasion/occupation of Iraq has stretched the US military too thin. We would be hard-pressed to meet the challenges of another crisis, such as a war on the Korean peninsula or an invasion of Taiwan.
By the way, I know this is getting WAY OFF TOPIC, but readers would benefit from seeing the "big picture", even if it is only my opinion!
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Cshannon



Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
..Im trying to say what you just said and agreed with...

...Im sorry but you really need a new angle; becuz flaming about the same thing over and over again is getting a little tiresome.

I know your opinion, but no matter what you say it will always remain JUST an opinion, as will mine, and the posters before this, and every single posters on this forum.

Youve said what you wanted to say about six times now with repeated arguments, so lets let this topic move on.


You may think it JUST my opinion, but my posts do contain info commonly regarded as being factual (most posters seem to agree with it anyway), which you just refuse to realise (ie. Japan is a stronger country than China in nearly every way - I don't think anyone but you would disagree). In other words, you seem to have no way to rebuttle, except to write everything I said off as being "just opinionated". Sort of a cop out, don't you think? If you're wrong just admit it... then I'll gladly move on... and if you are right then prove it... (you've yet to provide any substantial arguments). Don't mean to sound unreasonable, but geez...
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homersimpson



Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Posts: 569
Location: Kagoshima

PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
homersimpson wrote:

Wow, one can't know where to start: the horrible grammar or the illogical argument.



One doesnt have to, looks like I got my reply.


Huh?



Quote:
Lister100 wrote:

We've all got vested interests thats for sure. Who wants to see Japan suffer even in a economic battle when we're all being paid in Yens. I don't want to work for free.

Then again our opinions won't add up to that much anyway so no harm in talking hypotheticals.



...Illogical?

Ya! sure sounds illogical how I say ppl want to protect Japan becuz thats where they live...

...illogical alright...

...or wait?

...No thats just truth!

...have you seen the news lately?

...whose flag are they burning right now in China?

Is it North Koreas?

Is it the USAs?

...no its Japans actually. Is that regarded to you as "innocent-nothing-to worry-about" behaviour?



...as you so nicely put it to me before in your own words.

You're using something else's post to prove YOUR point? That's odd. Shouldn't you be using YOUR own point to prove your position? Your argument is illogical because people who live in Japan don't necessarily want to protect it. I live in Japan and have no desire to "protect" it, nor do most Japanese.



Quote:
homersimpson wrote:

Try reading a newspaper. Or if you get a chance watch the TV.


...and congratulations on perfecting your internet writing...

...really! ...hats off on that one homer.

...also as Ive said before with you when it comes down to this, if you do want to continue to spam or haggle me then you can PM me with it...

...cuz it doesnt belong on this board.


Apparently you have no clue what "spam" means (not just a luncheon meat). If I have spammed your email account I suggest you report me to your corresponding government agency, as many countries have declared spamming illegal. Also, in English there is an oddity known as an apostrophe.
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Captain Onigiri



Joined: 20 Jan 2005
Posts: 103
Location: fly-over land

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry I had to leave town for a couple of days and leave you guys to discuss amounst yourselves so I'm having to refer to post a couple of pages ago. I guess I need to elaborate on the definition of the word, hypothetical. The hypothetical part of the discussion on this thread is the potential hypothetical future war between Japan and China and respective allies. Discussion of any darker parts of history such as Japan's involvement in the Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere (sometimes known as WWII) or the US's Jim Crow laws are not hypothetical and I hadn't realized that anyone would mistake it as such. Middle school/Jr High is a good time for students to learn about some of their country's mistakes. Otherwise you end up with jingoist, my-country-can-do-no-wrong, adults. On the other hand, if I tried to draw my Jr High/Freshman students into a discussion of a hypothetical future war between China and Japan with possible involvement of the US, all I would end up with is all my students upset and running home to tell their parents that Mr. Long says there is going to be a war soon between China and Japan and we will all be drafted next month. The hording of cans of beans will ensue along with me spending all my evenings on the phone with parents.
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Synne



Joined: 06 Apr 2004
Posts: 269
Location: Tohoku

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
(ie. Japan is a stronger country than China in nearly every way - I don't think anyone but you would disagree). In other words, you seem to have no way to rebuttle, except to write everything I said off as being "just opinionated"


It is an opinion though, everything you say is an opinion, no matter how many facts you throw in there you are still making an opinion based on those facts.

"Japan is stronger then China in everyway."

Thats an opinion!

Disagree or not it is still an opinion!

Great that you can throw in hundreds of facts left and right but when it comes down to what you are trying to say it is an opinion.

You cant prove straight up that todays Japan is stronger than todays China becuz no one knows that, we can all give our opinions on it but until that war actually happens and a victor is declared, no one will know.

Quote:
If I have spammed your email account I suggest you report me to your corresponding government agency, as many countries have declared spamming illegal. Also, in English there is an oddity known as an apostrophe.


...flame was the word I was going for there, my apologies, and I dont have an apostrophe mark on my computer other then this one "It`s" which is not an apostrophe so I just do away with them and assume the level of English on this board is high enough to work around such small idiocies...but then again I guess to some it isnt.

Quote:
Your argument is illogical because people who live in Japan don't necessarily want to protect it. I live in Japan and have no desire to "protect" it, nor do most Japanese.


The funny thing is though that some Japanese and foreigners dont necessarily NOT want to protect it.

Can you speak for all the foreigners in Japan by saying "None of them want to protect Japan."?

...No you cant, so therefore how is it illogical for me to say that they do want to protect Japan?

I cant say it is illogical for you to think that all foreigners dont want to protect Japan becuz I cant speak for them all...just as you cant.
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Horizontal Hero



Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 2492
Location: The civilised little bit of China.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's interestig to note that most of you teachers in Japan have backed your host country (Japan) in this dispute, with certain reservations in some cases. Yet on the China forum almost all the teachers have heavily criticised their host country (China), although often without direct support for Japan.

I'm in China (Hong Kong actually) and what I have seen in China I find deeply disturbing. How can a country with 100% of its history text books and media heavily distorted and inaccurate, criticise its neghbour for allowing the printing of text books that are, initially at least, being used by less than 0.2% of the school population? I mean if the Japanese government is so out-to-get China, why do they allow the printing of the other (I assume) more historically accurate books which are used by 99.9% of the school population?

The level of the anti-Japan brainwashing here is mind-boggling. Honestly, Japan hasn't got a hope of a fair trial on this matter. The hatred that the CCP has engendered equates to xenophobic hysteria. There are books being published here which double the number of atrocities from Nanjing, and other WW2 battles (Chinese chatrooms are filled with absurd claims about 50 milllion Chinese killed by Japan in ww2), exhibitions about the war are opening all the time, detailing, yet again stuff that happened 60-70 years ago. There are anti-Japan stories daily in the press.

The front page of the Sount China Morning Post the other day just about summed it up fro me. It showed a boy of no more than about 12 years of age hurling a paint ball at the Japanese embasssy, his face contorted with absolute hatred. Now I just cannot see that as "spontaneous" protesting as the Beijing authorities have called it. That boy and the thousands of mostly under-25 protestors are the inevitable result of an education of hatred, with China-as-victim of the world. Hell, my 30 year old chinese gilrfirnd had never even seen the picture of that guy in front of the tank in Tiannamen, 1989 - until I showed one to her a couple of months ago. Interestingly she refused to accept it as true, and called it a fake. "Nobody could do that" she said.

You may not know, but the same week as these most recent anti-Japanese protests, there was a protest in rural Zhejiang province, involving about 30 000 villagers (one of many such protests in the last year in China). Unlike in the anti-Japanese protests where the cops just stood around smiling, they took to the protesters with batons and riot gear, smashed skulls, and according to locals, killed two elderly protestors. But the cause of the protestors in that protest was illigitimate according to the CCP reaction - devastaing pollution and environmental damage caused by the factories owned by local officials

In China, whatever serves the Party is OK, whatever doesn't, is cause for busting of heads.
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Cshannon



Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"Japan is stronger then China in everyway."


Wow, a direct misquote... I love it.

Anyway, all literal, technical and otherwise fussy aspects aside, you need to be more practical (just my opinion...). If you want the last word though, go ahead. I think I`m done. Cheers.
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Synne



Joined: 06 Apr 2004
Posts: 269
Location: Tohoku

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cshannon wrote:
(ie. Japan is a stronger country than China in nearly every way


...so sorry I didnt take the time to go word for word.

Practical?

Im trying to tell you what an opinion is becuz it would seem you dont know.

Thats pretty practical if you ask me.

You were done five posts back, Im amazed you didnt throw out another post about the same repeated argument this time.
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Birdog3344



Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 126
Location: Osaka, Japan

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a little bit of a spin on this issue and to direct it away from a back and forth of 'who's right/who's wrong', 'who's better/who's stronger', etc., i'd be interested in opinions on 'why?' Why is there so much hatred b/w the two countries? Some tend to brush aside the history angle saying, "the war was 60 years ago", but slavery was 500 years ago and America is still fighting that battle. Others blame the Communist government alone, but is it really that simple? How much of it can we chalk up to politics? Two countries battling for power hoping to cast the other in a poor light on the international stage? What part do the territorial disputes play? Can they be resolved or will it be a constant struggle for a balance of power?
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