Job Discussion Forums

[killian]

hi ya'll. this internet job search is just plain silly: send my photo, resume etc. have them send me the physical form to be completed here by a doctor...it is all just so lame. we are expected to take everything on faith and they have everything on their side. can i just turn up in china, poke around a bit and land a job with minimal hassle. such is the way it works in taiwan quite well. is such still possible in the PRC?

[amandabarrick]

There are countless threads on this question. Read them!
After all is said and done, it is better to get a job and a contract, hence the Z visa, before entering China. It is illegal to seek employment on a toursit visa in China. Changing the L visa to a Z visa may present some problems, or a visa run to Hong Kong, etc...
AB

[Yu]

Applied many jobs via Internet. Requesting a resume seems reasonable to me. As for a photo, I decided I did not really want to work for a place that required one... though I sent many out. I was never asked to do a physical form.

Before just showing up make sure you have enough cash reserves to support yourself for 2 months or until you can find a job. People who just show up without a job are always running out of money and panicking... read a few of their posts and see if you really think that this is the best option.

If you can't deal with the frsutration of finding a job in China... then what do you expect to happen once you get here.

[GregSka]

I did it, and it was the best choice I made since deciding to come here. There's way too many people who get duped into bad jobs through the internet. As long as you are prepared and ready to put up with a week of interviews, planning, and stress, you should be rewarded for it.

[killian]

i've been there before. it seems better to actually see the organization i'm signing up with instead of "buying sight unseen." i remember all too well spending $100 US for a physical exam stateside and then having to do it again in china because the US one wasn't good enough.

[killian]

so, you just picked where you wanted to work and went for it? how very...capitalistic of you.

[killian]

amandabarrick, aren't you a recruiter? does having folks just turn up make things more difficult for such a job? seems just turning up would cut the recruiter of the picture. as i am fluent in chinese i don't need to be picked up at the airport- which seem to be the extent of most "recruiters" services.
cheers!

[anthyp]

This thread is a joke, right?

Tell me, is the OP just stupid or is he too lazy to read the countless other threads discussing this very issue? Either way, let me spell it out for you once again, and I'll use plain language so you understand.

It is illegal to enter the People's Republic of China on anything but a Z (Employment Visa) with the intention of seeking or securing employment. This has nothing to do with what you feel about this, I'm sorry to say the immigration officials in this country don't care that you think it's inconvenient. It is the law and there are reasons for it. Same as why you can't go anywhere else in this world on any kind of Visa you find convenient and "just show up," looking for work.

Countless people do it, I know. But if you are coming here to work, you must have a Z Visa, according to the law -- and somebody to sponsor it. If you are coming here as a tourist than an L will do just fine. Is that clear enough for you?

And I will tell you the same thing I tell everyone too lazy to obey Chinese immigration law -- don't whine about it later if the organization you end up with doesn't feel inclined to do the same.

[anthyp]

Whoops, sorry to sound so caustic.

But this question has been raised countless times. And there is really only one way to go about it. You must have the Z Visa if you are coming here to work. Why do it any other way? None of those ways would be legal, and however many people tell you it'll be OK, that doesn't change the fact that you are still taking an unnecessary risk.

Yes, it sucks that you have to commit to a school before coming here. Such is life. China simply does not allow anyone to come here and look for work; your employer must prove that there is a reason for granting you the work Visa, that you are a qualified individual, and no Chinese person can do your job as well or better.

The Chinese do not want unqualified backpackers roaming the country, selling their services to whatever organization is shady enough to take them on. If you are a qualified, realistic, individual, I think you can understand this.

[Talkdoc]

Excellent Summation Anthyp.

I would add that misformation abounds here regarding what is required to obtain a Z-Visa.

If you are a prospective teacher back home, contemplating teaching in China, here's what you need in order to obtain a Z-Visa:

1) A four-year college degree (any major)*

2) A prospective employer (school) licensed and authorized to sponsor (hire) foreign experts (many private English language schools are not licensed and will encourage you to come here with a business (F-) Visa).

3) The employer will mail (not fax) you a) A Certificate of Foreign Expert and b) A Foreign Expert Employment License.

4) You should make copies of these and, in person, take these documents and your passport (which must have at least 6 months left before expiration) to your nearest Chinese consulate (or, you can use a Visa Service authorized by the Chinese consulate to do this for you by proxy - usually they charge a fee of 45 dollars. See, for example, http://www.visarite.com/chinavisa/China_work_visa.htm)

5) Your passport will be returned to you by overnight mail with the attached Z-Visa within five working days.

6) YOU DO NOT NEED A MEDICAL EXAM FOR THE Z-VISA!!! Some (but not most) schools will request it in order to predetermine your medical eligibility before paying the registration fees: although it is not actually required to process the Z-Visa. Besides, not only will most provinces not accept the Physical Exam Record for Foreigner completed by a doctor from a foreign country, many of them will not even accept it if it's been completed by a Chinese doctor from another province (although one member apparently reported success in having the completed form accepted from his country of origin; but the point is, you don't need it for the Z-Visa). The medical exam is required for your residency permit which must be processed within 30 days upon your arrival in China. Most schools will simply walk their new staff through a public hospital for this purpose, a day or two after they arrive (and, usually, the school assumes the cost).

Coming to China, at your own expense, to interview for jobs and to check out different schools (before making a commitment) on a Tourist Visa is fine if you have the means to do it that way. (It is not illegal, as I understand it, to meet and chat with a variety of schools on an L-Visa if the intent is not to begin working at any one particular school with it and where it is understood one will need to return to China with a Z-Visa in order to commence employment.) Be advised that many schools and provinces will NOT (and many cannot because of provincial enforcement of the regulations) convert that L-Visa to a Z-Visa for you. This will typically require that you travel to a neighboring Asian country (such as Thailand) with the proper paperwork to order to apply for and return to China with the Z-Visa. There is nothing wrong or illegal with obtaining employment in China that way if you have the financial means and time with which to do it.

We have had this discussion numerous times before and we will, I am certain of it, continue to have it in the future (with various forum members continuing to frame this discussion as a matter of "personal choice"). Bottom line is this: There is no advantage or good reason for teaching in China as an illegal alien. Some do it that way because it is the ONLY way they can (that is, they don't have a college degree) and, in certain provinces (particularly where there is very high demand), it is currently tolerated. Some do it that way because they believe (erroneously so), that it provides them with some special type of convenience or greater freedom of movement (regarding letters of release) and, in other cases, some people simply feel (just as erroneously) that the Z-Visa is just too difficult, too costly or too time-consuming to obtain.

Doc

*Note: Many private English language schools will not scrutinize fake degrees and will accept them at face value. However, some do actually care (and verify) and will ask you to send them a copy of your transcripts. Many government universities will actually confirm your degrees after you have commenced working (at least, Hainan University did). Penalties for working here with forged degrees include fines, possible imprisonment and deportation. As one forum member recently pointed out, prostitution in China, although illegal, is common practice and is widely tolerated (far more so, across provinces, than for foreigners working here illegally). But what I would quickly add is that occasionally, and mostly for the purposes of show, setting an example and overdue or reduced payola, brothels are raided and the girls and owners, imprisoned. It happens (perhaps not often, but it does). What constitutes "acceptable risk" depends entirely on your own perception of it and what your personal level of tolerance is for it. Some here, for example, feel there is little or no risk involved in income tax evasion; others disagree adamantly. Making a major life change based on what is illegal but "currently tolerated," especially in China, is risky business in my opinion; at any rate, it's a risk I personally would not be willing to take.

Finally, many private English language schools will actually forge a college degree for you, if you do not have one, in order to register you as a foreign expert for your Z-Visa. But I cannot think of a clearer and louder statement of contempt in regard to how the school views (and treats) its foreign teachers (not to mention how it views itself in regard to the law, vis a vis its systematic commission of fraud and, by extension, its obligation to you and your contract). If you decide to get into bed with the devil, do not be shocked when most of your nights are ridden with nightmares: A word to the wise.

[Roger]

Maybe if you fit their dream description of the ideal candidate you can apply for a position and get an invitation for a job that comes with a work visa from the start. BUt for maybe half of all job applicants, it is a situation characterised by mutual distrust by the two sides, hence oversubscription is intended on the employers side so that they have at least one or two more or less ideal candidats to fill positions.
ANd that means they won't send you the papers overseas because they want to see you in flesh and blood.
Which they should anyway, before committing themselves.
If you come here you can scour the country and find the most congenial locale and school; I am not saying you should accept illegal employment but I do agree that it is inevitable for most to work here for a month or two while on a tourist visa; during this time you are on probation, and both sides can slip out of nthe contract painlessly.

[Talkdoc]

[yaco]

I must disagree with Anthyp and Talkdoc's attuitude towards Killian and partially agree with Roger.

Killian is criticised for flouting the rules in relation to working legally in China and also for not reading previous threads.

There has been many posts from teachers complaining about the bureaucratic nightmare in applying for a Z Visa outside of China. It is becoming standard practise for schools to issue a Z Visa after the teacher arrives in China because Schools realised they were losing many teachers during the Visa process.

Yet no person criticices Talkdoc and Anthyp about their failure to read previous threads.

Rogers argument about face to face interviews has merit if the teacher is travelling from a neighbouring country. As an example, Thailand rarely employs people without a face to face interview. I am holidaying in Thailand and Cambodia, but will visit schools for face to face interviews, to obtain employment when my contract ends in June.

[yaco]

Talkdoc

Sorry to contradict you but a standard Batchelor's degree is 3 years in Australia.

Why are you working on an F Visa ?

[kev7161]

The biggest problem in my mind with applying for and accepting a job while still in your mother country is there is no way of really knowing what kind of job you are getting. Their websites are pretty and often information-less (The most beautiful place in China!). A phone interview doesn't yield much and you are only going to get promises and sweet talk via emails.

Yes, definitely contact former (or current) teachers at the school if you can, but that is not always possible. As a matter of fact, some former teachers from last school year left a very positive testimonial on my school's website and the man of this husband/wife team hated this place! I always wonder why he wrote what he did (or maybe he didn't - - maybe his words were changed).

Anyway, when I came here, I came on a tourist's visa, then my school changed it to a Z visa - - no problems there. I had already accepted the job before I got here and things seemed okay on the surface - - but sometimes I wished I had done a little more digging before settling in here. I was too complacent and just accepted this job without enough forethought.

So, I am riding the fence on this issue.