Job Discussion Forums

[Virtue16]

Hello to all,

This is my first time on the forum and I would like to take this time to introduce myself and see how everyone is doing.

I write from Chicago Illinois, the great windy city. I am currently an accountant, Central American descent and I enjoy volunteering very much, some might say it's my passion. I also intend to pursue a teaching career and follow my heart which at this point is leading me to Spain.

My first question is,

Does the supply for English Teachers in Madrid seem to outweigh the demand? With all the language programs out there, I could only imagine the graduate turnover of English teachers pouring into the streets of Madrid.

EBC or Windsor Institute? I hesitate to say EBC only because of the bias response that may arise due to EBC's intelligent marketing plan to advertise on this web page. On the other hand Windsor�s website seems to lack comfort regarding information pertaining to accommodations, network connections, specific career services and an overall concern for their major clients, the prospect students. The only thing Windsor continues to say is that they are offering a Trinity certificate which is recognized world wide.

If anyone has any comments, suggestions or recommendations, please by all means give me a dose of reality.

Thank you for time!

�I can very well plan out my heart desires, but destiny will map its own path� DG

[Helen Frubeck]

Hi!

Talking about intelligent advertising , have you come across TEFL International? That�s what I call advertised intelligently, meaning they�re all over the place, I guess you can�t get any more intelligent than that!

There are big, medium and maybe small sized TEFL schools in Spain. To find out if the school is right for you, speak to them, I�m sure they will be able to help you more. Being an English teacher in Madrid, from my perspective, on the question if there are jobs - my answer has to be - There are jobs! Of course it all depends on who you decide to go with. The going rate is between 13 - 18 euros an hour. Some companies are located just inside the Metro Zone A area of Madrid and some you have to travel outside. Many of us work between 15 - 30 hours, over 30 hours is a lot but again it depends on what you want.

I came to Madrid for many reasons, to improve my Spanish (which obviously is not your need, as you said you were from Central America), to travel Europe and enjoy Spain.

I was working right after the TEFL program I went through and yes, I did go with EBC, but I went with them not because of their advertising but rather the old fashioned way, a friend of mine went with them, she was extremely happy so I decided on EBC as well and they were worth every penny!

Of course it wasn�t all perfect, the course can be intensive but the teachers were nice and real helpful. Also the knowledge in that school is unbelievable. From conditionals (1,2,3!) to Business English, we were taught well. They were very helpful and the job placement help was excellent, I think they�ve built up a good reputation of producing well trained EFL teachers that the language schools call all the time, during my course I heard the admin person asking the schools to wait as our class just started, we were only on the first week. You will also find out that graduates from 2 years ago still use EBC to find more hours, change schools, so it is really a lifetime job search scheme. EBC seems to have a good contact base in the corporate sector of Madrid and now even in Buenos Aires. That�s also part of my plan, one day (not yet though!)to try Argentina but for now, its Spain and I intend to enjoy every moment I�m here!

There are jobs out there but the final decision as to who you want to work with is really yours to make. We were interviewing the Monday after the course because we had interviews lined up on the last Friday.

I found out later on that it wasn�t just our group, it happens all the time, the language schools call EBC and there aren�t enough graduates to fill the spots. Also most language schools compete for the same time slots, ie: the lunch hours from 1:30 - 4:30, normally classes are 1 or 1,5 hours per go. So there you are, more decisions to make!

Spain is really worth it, the people are friendly, warm, too noisy at times (they all speak at the same time!!! ) but as a whole a great bunch of people. If you want more info about Madrid, send me a pm and I hope I can be of some help. Good luck and hasta pronto!

[Moore]

It would be quite easy to score a cheap point here, and say that suppply does outweigh demand because this place is full US citizens working illegally in the European Union with cr*ppy wages and no job security for anyone because there�ll always be an American happy who�ll come along to do the job for peanuts, but I�d never stoop so low as to score such a cheap point.

[spiral78]

Working illegally has downsides on both sides, if you know what I mean.
For the illegal workers, it means no contracts (hence no guaranteed income), no health insurance (yeah, you'll be treated in an emergency, but who's going to pay any big bills afterwards? your travel insurance company has a loophole if you are working/living illegally), no job security.

Sure, it may be an acceptable risk, particularly if one has some financial cushion in case of emergency, but long-term it doesn't really work out for a teacher, either. I'm sure I'll get slammed by some of those devil-may-care-having-a-great-time-here teachers.........But I'm not really saying 'don't do it.' Just - Be a little extra careful!!

[Helen Frubeck]

Sorry, moore, my priorities are quite clear, I am in Spain not to make big bucks and like many of my American friends we are here for a year at the most, who ever said forever in Spain, I sure didn�t!

My priorities are clear, I want to see Spain, enjoy the country, see Europe and come back to the US with a better level of Spanish, that�s it! And if you classify earning 13-18 euros an hour as cr*ppy wages , then I rest my case! From what many schools tell me this is the norm, but maybe you have your own criteria of what acceptable hourly rates should be.

From what my Brit roommate tells me we earn the same hourly rate working for different schools and the only difference is her language center pays social security on her hours, she has a contract that says she�s working with them till June and she might be elligible if she works the time required to collect the"paro". That�s unemployment. But like anyone else they can pull the plug any time they want.

Sorry this isn�t a cheap point here, we will teach in the EU if we want to and if you think that�s not in your rule book, then take this up with Zapatero or the immigration people in Spain.

And by the way, Americans are being hired and where did this idea of yours come from? Your idea of us accepting inferior wages? Between my 3 schools I make an average of 16 euros an hour and if you think that I�m accepting inferior wages, then tough luck for me I guess!

If it was really a big deal for the language schools then they would stop hiring non EU�s. There are schools that only hire EU�s and they are quite clear at interview time, but then there are schools that hire EU�s and non-EU�s. I just added more hours and I now have a total of 25 hours and I can�t complain about my wages!

Of course it would be nice to earn mega bucks, who wouldn�t want that? but you gotta be for real. So when I finally get to terms of wanting to earn mega bucks and settling down to the stable 9-5 job I can get in the US, then I�ll head back home. In the meantime I�m here to enjoy Spain and improve my Spanish.

And yes, I do have my own health insurance just in case we get started on Americans bleeding the EU social benefits. ok? And if anyone wants to know who the good paying schools are, I�ll be more than happy to give their names, just send me a pm. One school in particular is always looking for teachers.

Helen

[Moore]

Oh dear, terribly sorry to have offended someoneby suggesting that it�s ILLEGAL for Americans to be working here without a valid working visa.
Dunno, call me old fashioned, but something being illegal or legal still means something to me.

Spain has the worst conditions for teachers I have come across in ten years of teaching EFL in many different countries and continents. Go to any other part of Europe and you will find it almost impossible to work without a valid visa, but Spain, for whatever reason, has let this slide. This means that Americans come here to work and accept precarious non-contract work, thus denying the possibility of Europeans who do have valid papers the possibility of putting their feet down and demanding decent conditions, as any employer knows full well that there�ll be an American along any minute who will be happy to work under such conditions. The effect it produces is that teachers here almost never get things that most (Europeans) consider normal: paid holidays, sick pay, a full-time contract that reflects the hours you are actually doing which therefore will allow you to claim unemployment benefit should the need arise, etc. etc. Perhaps as an American you have come to see these things as an optional luxury, but it�s the norm over here, or at least it�s supposed to be.

You are working and benefitting from Spain�s infrastructure: police, water, roads, transport and so on, and yet are contributing nothing at all to the system you happily use. In Europe, as in the rest of the world, we are facing a fiscal crisis where there are not enough people paying into the system to support future pensions and development, so illegal workers are really not helping.

As to the point of Americans accepting inferior wages, I�m sorry, but you are wrong if you think the majority of Americans get anything like the same as legal workers: most get a bit less, but as I said before, the point is not what you individually get it�s the fact that you undermine any chance we legal workers have of demanding any of the basic benefits that you would receive, for example, as a teacher in France , and you are also robbing the system of taxes. Schools hire non-EUs because they can, because all the money they get from the company goes straight into their pockets and none of it benefits the country.

It�s easy for you, as you said, you�re just on holiday here, but WE LIVE HERE - is it too much to ask that you have a bit of respect for that? As I have said before, by all means come here and work if you can get away with it, but please have the decency and respect to keep quiet about it: you ARE bleeding the system, so don�t try to justify it: just be happy while it lasts.

[Virtue16]

You said that, �Spain has the worst conditions for teachers I have come across in ten years of teaching EFL in many different countries and continents. Go to any other part of Europe and you will find it almost impossible to work without a valid visa�

Well Moore, you can send an EFL teacher anywhere in the World, the beauty of this system is that an organization whether it is a non-profit organization or not vouches for your ability to teach in that country without needing a visa. Or you are just a free lancer offering your service to better satisfy your needs as much as theirs. My point is,

1) An unwritten contract that states, we the teachers will provide you are service of teaching your people English to better improve their language settings for communication purposes, which will allow them to accustom themselves to a universal language that continues to spread faster than any language ever invented.

Why is this good, because now your country has allow themselves to open business alleyways with either corporations looking to establish themselves abroad, franchising or trade that will help boost the economy, decrease unemployment and help the �system� with their tax problems by imposing a tax on foreign companies establishing themselves in your country and imposing an income tax on the thousands of new employees.

All we ask in return is to benefit from Spain�s infrastructure: police, water, roads, transport and so on, as you delightfully put it. As far as not contributing, what do you think teachers do with their 1000 Euros a month? They pump it back into your economy. Whether it is purchasing food from the supermarket or restaurant, paying for the metro, club or paying to watch a Futbol game, etc. etc. etc. Let me tell you, Americans are not good at saving money. This should be an advantage from an economic stand point. Japan and China knows this. America is one of the easiest and profitable countries to market to. Why, because we live to work and if their is any chance to enjoy our money, we take it. So we are happily using your system, we just hope that your �system� makes the right management decision with our hard earned money. We provide services as do you.

You are working and benefiting from Spain�s infrastructure

Well Moore from my research it seems that Spain is heavily dependent on Tourism. In order to communicate with tourists you need to speak their language. If you look at current travel economic statistics, there are more people from the US going to Spain every year than any other country for vacation purposes which means revenue, and lots of it. I would say that in order for Spain�s infrastructure to truly capitalize on their tourism investment market, more people must be knowledgeable of the English language creating more tourist servies. This now creates a demand for English teachers to help Spain communicate better with tourism and thus hopefully help them maximize their investment by generating as much as they can from their biggest piece of their so called diversified portfolio.

It was no mistake that Franco, during his era which I never supported, decided to send a team of business experts to the United States to study our management infrastructure. And it is no shock to know that their will always be some kind of demand for English teachers because nobody from Spain wants to be an English teacher. Is this was so then yes, our happiness would not last forever. ! !

You seem like an intelligent person Moore. If you want to demand decent conditions, I would start by writing to your government. It's not true to say that �employer knows full well that there�ll be an American along any minute who will be happy to work under such conditions,� again as you so eloquently put it. We come to Spain well educated. Some are doctors, some are lawyers, Accountants, engineers and the list goes on and on. It will be an insult to work for �peanuts� or to even assume that. Just as Spain is fulfilling our satisfaction to live in another culture so that we can bring back with us the many memories, we are also fulfilling Spain�s Economic Fiscal plan to boost GDP, increase Exports and Imports and of course lower unemployment. But again it all begins with business connections.

Do NOT mistake our enthusiasm for working in your country as a vacation that does not benefit anybody. It is our work ethic that I believe Spain is interested in. Luxury is having a two hour lunch and many months of vacation. Here in American I will get lucky if I can leave my office for 20 minutes or enjoy a nice dinner with my family.

The bottom line is the world is changing and we all need each other to survive. It�s a pooling of our natural resources, intelligence and soulful hearts that will help us get to the next millennium. If we implement the right resources now, our future will prosper that much more. A chain reaction of events and benefits is priceless. There is a lot that we can learn from each other but we first must put aside our differences and find the beauty and reason for Americans coming to Spain and for your ability to see things from other people�s perspective. In America I was taught that if you can put yourself in others people shoes than that is the first step to humanity awareness and your first opportunity to do something about it.

In closing my grandparents come from Galicia. My cousin played professional soccer for Spain, El Magico Gonzales, from El Salvador, played for I believe it was Valladolid. I have been their many times and understand our way of life though my parents, well my dad who carries with him the Galicia last name. So I think I am can justify my position for Americans and Spaniards when I say, if we allow ourselves to, we can simply learn a lot from each other.

Well I can go on forever, but It�s 7PM, I�ve been working over 12 hrs as usual and I�m on my way to grab one of my favorite beers, �Esterlla Galicia.� Did I mention my family owns that too? Just kidding, I wish.
I would enjoy meeting you in the future Moore, I hope that someday that can me arrange and that I can invite you out for a beer.

Peace

[Moore]

Essentially the argument of Virtue16 is that Americans bring the gift of the English language with them to graciously impart to the hungry and thankful locals who can then use this blessing to do business with the rest of the world: I don�t know if you have noticed, but the E.U. already includes the United Kingdom and Ireland, and guess what? They speak English as a mother tongue, the only difference being that they are legal and pay taxes.

As to the argument that Americans will spend their wages in Spain therefore that�s ok as they are pumping their money back into the system, what do you think E.U. nationals do with their money? Funnily enough, they also spend it in the local economy.


Maybe I�m just bitter, because the other day I went to an accountant and found out just how much I have to pay in taxes this year: believe me, it�s a lot - Americans don�t have this problem, as their employers don�t declare them. I don�t mind paying taxes, it�s part of life in Europe: here we have heavily subsidised services - the metro does NOT run of ticket sales revenue, it runs off taxes. As does the Police. As do the medical services. And everything else we have here, just like in the rest of Europe.

Then there is the comment about Spain being heavily dependant on tourism and therefore needs teachers: the rest of Europe is too. Take for example Paris which is the worlds most visited city: there is no way you�d get a visa to work there, even though they do need English for tourism. Somehow they muddle on through by employing British citizens and giving them contracts, pensions, sick pay and so on.

Americans flock to Spain because it is the only place in Europe where they can get away with working - you can�t do it in France, Germany, Sweden, Holland or anywhere else. this creates a disproportionate concentration of cheap, undemanding teachers which does undermine any possibilty of legal teachers demanding better conditions. You tell me to write to the government if I want better conditions? Spain is a free market economy, and as such employers will only offer better conditions if they have to in order to get and keep good quality teachers, that�s why, for example, pay is better in Asia, because it�s harder to attract and keep teachers. In Paris schools offer real jobs with real contracts because if they didn�t nobody would work for them and they would not have the option of turning to a grateful American who�s here for a good time and not a long time.

Is it so hard for you to understand how irritating this can be for us? Like I said, WE LIVE HERE! We aren�t going to finally go back to a proper job, this is home for us.

If I went to America and could somehow work without a visa and was taking jobs from Americans who could perfectly well do the job I would never have the cheek to argue online with an American that somehow I was benifitting his country and he should be happy that I come over and not pay taxes and undermine his possibilities of ever getting better working conditions. Please, I ask you to at least have some good manners and respect to at least appreciate that what you are doing here by working is illegal and that not paying taxes in Europe is a criminal offence, not to mention the negative effect on the local legal workers.

Finally, I�d like to take you up on the drink thing, send me a pm when you arrive (just to be clear, I�m not sure you realized I am English), I�m not as much of a ranter in person, it�s just that I�m truly sick of being scr*wed for taxes and then seeing posters on this board encouraging illegal workers to come here, and as one poster even advised that you don�t need to worry about medical treatment, they�ll treat anyone for free here - we PAY for this stuff! Don�t get me wrong, I have many good American friends here, I�ve got nothing against you, it�s just that it p*sses me off when American people see working here as somehow a right - it�s not - it�s illegal.

[foss]

[Moore]

It�s because I also do translations and so I have to work as an "autonomo" so I have to charge, declare, and pay I.V.A. every three months, as well as income tax.

[spiral78]

It's me that said even an illegal worker would receive emergency medical treatment - and followed up that bit by pointing out that, by working illegally, one has likely nullified any travel insurance that would pick up the tab. The implication was meant to be that an illegal worker may (should) be personally liable for any medical costs incurred.
Goes along with my rant about not leaving home without sufficient savings/emergency funds. Particularly for those who want to take the risk of working illegally.

[csenoner]

I am an american who taught English in Rome for one year. And believe me, spain is not the only country with illegal workers. I was 100% illegal and so was just about anyone else I knew out there. And I'm not sure if they really paid taxes or claimed our salaries, but they told us they were taking tax money out of our check ( 15.50 or whatever , but 12.00 net). they probably just kept the money but I had a steady job and was working as many hours as I wanted. Some of us our illegal and some of us arent. some go through the proper process with visas etc. WHy do you assume that all the Americans are on vacation and the brits are permanent. I have met many permanat expats in barcelona and rome from americca living in Europe for life. I've also known brits who went home after a few months. There is nothing wrong with offering our services on the open market. we are providing a wanted service. if all of the brits were enough to supply the demand for english teachers, it would be alot harder to get a job, and there would be a lot less americans due to that fact. also, i made 12 euros and hour and that was good pay in italy. you should be thankful for 16 or 18. add to that that rome is very overpriced compared to barc. not sure about madrid

[Moore]

a. Check the spelling on your posts
b. Stop flaming: if you've nothing new or constructive to add then don't bother

[laflaca]

I'd just like to put in my 2 cents: I have all my legal working papers (EU citizen) and I make exactly the same/have been offered exactly the same amount of pay, at the same companies, as my illegal American friends. They are NOT doing the same job for less pay. Fewer benefits, maybe. But as far as I can tell, we have the same paycheck.

Additionally, the going rate (13-18 Euros an hour) is really not so bad if you compare it to the wages of, say, a secretary in Spain, or even in Italy, Portugal, and Greece. Is it enough to support a family? Absolutely not. But if you take a look around, many Spanish people (especially those under 30) aren't making enough to support a wife and kid, either. Don't compare our wages to those in Britain or Germany. Compare them to what everyone else in this country is making.

Don't know how true it is, but a few months ago Que! put the median Madrilenyo salary at 1,600 a month.

[Moore]

I accept some of what you're saying Laflaca, but you're missing the point a bit: we do not have decent contracts as EU workers as there's always a ready supply of illegals there to take your job if you were to demand proper contracts and conditions. Before Spain I worked in Paris, there you got a proper contract, and that was because schools were obliged to do so and could not just employ any passing American or Ozzie.

Our salaries are not comparable to Spanish ones as they are mostly on full time contacts with full social benefits and most teachers are not: for example...

-A year-round guaranteed salary (ie not just nine month and fend for yourself over summer)
-Full payments of social security: most schools here do not declare all your hours and full hourly pay, meaning problems when it comes to pensions and social security

...this is not asking a lot, just our basic rights and these are being eroded by illegal workers willing to do the work as they're here for a good time and not for a long time.

This is quite apart from this the question of pay: there is a huge demand here for English teachers, increasing all the time, but why don't pay rates go up? Because there's always an illegal waiting there to do the work for the same old rate.

Don't kid yourself Laflaca: illegals do have a big effect on you.