Job Discussion Forums

[Jozef]

Hello

After having been looking for a job in Poland for many months, and not succeeded, in spite of having the right qualifications and the right amount of experience, I really start wondering about some issues.
Especially if you realize, that many schools actually ARE looking for teachers.
My only "handicap" is, that I'm not a so-called "native speaker".
However, my English is fluent, and I've got the CELTA certificate and the Cambridge Certificate of Proficiency at level A (which is the highest level).
But it seems, that they would rather hire an uneducated and unexperienced "native speaker", with less pedagogic skills, less understanding of grammar and language differences, less understanding of Central-European culture and a smaller vocabulary than someone like me.
It's only then, when I manage to avoid the question about being a native speaker, that I can make it to the point of being called to an interview.
And these look usually very promising, until the moment comes when I have to show my passport, by which it becomes clear that I'm not a...."native speaker".
My native tongue is Dutch, and I'm fluent i six languages, and could therefore even teach five other languages besides English as well.
What would be the best way to avoid being discriminated (I'm sorry, but using a more harmless term to describe this practice would be an understatement) for not being a "native speaker" ?
Sometimes I wonder what they're actually looking for: a decent and educated teacher who understands the students and the work, or a Hollywood movie star copy.
Are there any other non-native speakers who succeeded in Poland, and who could give me some advice?
Thanks a lot in advance.
With best regards.
J.

[MrQuack]

Well, maybe you could market yourself more as a native speaker. For example, refer to yourself as Joseph rather than Jozef. Have you lived in an English-speaking country at all? If you have, tell them that you lived there, but you have citizenship of Poland or Holland. It might also help if you can list your permanent address as somewhere in the UK, Ireland, Canada, USA, or Australia, to give more of an appearance of a native background.

I'm currently teaching in Poland now, and most of the schools that I've been to hire native speakers as well as Polish teachers. They hire the Polish teachers (some of whom have limited English skills) to teach beginners, and then the native speakers take over when the class reaches a more advanced level. I wish, from my job hunting experience here, that I spoke fluent Polish, as this would have helped my job-hunting efforts greatly.

And, finally, I don't wish to offend you, but on a contructive note, I could tell from your post that you aren't a native English speaker. Your post doesn't have a natural "flow" that one would expect from a native English speaker.

[ilugru]

[quote="MrQuack"]

I'm currently teaching in Poland now, and most of the schools that I've been to hire native speakers as well as Polish teachers. They hire the Polish teachers (some of whom have limited English skills) to teach beginners, and then the native speakers take over when the class reaches a more advanced level. I wish, from my job hunting experience here, that I spoke fluent Polish, as this would have helped my job-hunting efforts greatly.


The same is true for Russia, except that sometimes we have Russian teachers for advanced levels too. Some of the ADOSes in IH-Moscow and even some CELTA trainers are also Russian.

I also have a degree, a CELTA and a CPE grade A and I found a job in Moscow easily. Why don't you try to talk to the centre you did your CELTA with? They might be willing to employ you. As far as I know, IH's policy is no matter what nationality you are, if you have the right certificate, you're (more or less) welcome to join the ranks.

[Jozef]

Hello, again

Thank you, Ilugru, for the information about IH in Moscow.

In fact, maybe I should consider relocation myself, and Moscow sounds like a good option.

I'm aware that most language schools employ many teachers from their own country as well, but this means little consolation to me, because I'm from a so-called "third country".

And it's usually then, when the problem arises.

Maybe it's true, that I should suggest being a native speaker, as you, Mr Quack suggest.

The fact that I'm usually (mis?)taken for one, gave me the (false?) illusion that this alone would be sufficient.

And, actually, I have lived and worked in the UK, the USA, Canada and India (where English is generally spoken fluently) for several years.

And, Mr.Quack, don't take the "flow' of my post from yesterday as as sign of me being a "non-native speaker".

I would never use those constructions while teaching, nor when applying for a job, although when you analyse it, you'll not be able to find any grammar mistake in it.
Nor is there any risk that some parts of it could be misinterpeted.

I deliberately constructed my post in a slightly different way than I usually do, only to show that there are many more creative ways of using language correctly, than many "native speakers" usually seem to grasp.

Sometimes it can be fascinating to experiment with language and to try to assess it's limits and it's possibilities.

This is especially true for a universal language like English, as most users of English nowadays either grew up in another mother tongue, or in the vicinity of another language.

And this definitely doesn't make their English of worse quality.

Recent psychological and linguistic studies have shown that rather the opposite is true.
The more languages one encounters in one's formative years, the better linguistically equipped one becomes in all languages one manages to master.
And the more able one becomes to understand people who do not understand your language (yet).
And this is last ablility very useful when teaching.

This "multi-linguism" has a slight tendency to go at the expense of the "natural flow", but be aware that this term is usually employed as a eufemism for common simplicity.

There's nothing wrong with that, but let's be aware about where we'd like to focus our attention.

Just consider the brilliant way English is or was used by Brodsky, Nabokov, Kissinger, Chomsky, Gandhi, V.S. Naipaul, Roald Dahl etc.

Compare this with the way English is used by some of the world's most powerful men of today, all "native speakers" (I won't mention any names).

With best regards

Jozef

[Jozef]

Thank you, Ilugru, for the information about IH in Moscow.

In fact, maybe I should consider relocation myself, and Moscow sounds like a good option.

I'm aware that most language schools employ many teachers from their own country as well, but this means little consolation to me, because I'm from a so-called "third country".

And it's usually then, when the problem arises.

Maybe it's true, that I should suggest being a native speaker, as you, Mr Quack suggest.

The fact that I'm usually (mis?)taken for one, gave me the (false?) illusion that this alone would be sufficient.

And, actually, I have lived and worked in the UK, the USA, Canada and India (where English is generally spoken fluently) for several years.

And, Mr.Quack, don't take the "flow' of my post from yesterday as as sign of me being a "non-native speaker".

I would never use those constructions while teaching, nor when applying for a job, although when you analyse it, you'll not be able to find any grammar mistake in it.
Nor is there any risk that some parts of it could be misinterpeted.

I deliberately constructed my post in a slightly different way than I usually do, only to show that there are many more creative ways of using language correctly, than many "native speakers" usually seem to grasp.

Sometimes it can be fascinating to experiment with language and to try to assess it's limits and it's possibilities.

This is especially true for a universal language like English, as most users of English nowadays either grew up in another mother tongue, or in the vicinity of another language.

And this definitely doesn't make their English of worse quality.

Recent psychological and linguistic studies have shown that rather the opposite is true.
The more languages one encounters in one's formative years, the better linguistically equipped one becomes in all languages one manages to master.
And the more able one becomes to understand people who do not understand one's language (yet).
And this last ablility is very useful when teaching.

This "multi-linguism" has a slight tendency to go at the expense of the "natural flow", but be aware that this term is usually employed as a eufemism for common simplicity.

There's nothing wrong with that, but let's be aware about where we'd like to focus our attention.

Just consider the brilliant way English is or was used by Brodsky, Nabokov, Kissinger, Chomsky, Gandhi, V.S. Naipaul, Roald Dahl etc.

Compare this with the way English is used by some of the world's most powerful men of today, all "native speakers" (I won't mention any names).

With best regards

Jozef

[Jorge]

Jozef, not being a native-speaker can be seen, for instance, when using "it's" when "its" should have been used, a very common mistake. Or maybe it's the other way round?
Anyways, I just want to wish you a lot of luck in finding a job that really suits you!

[Jozef]

Jorge, just cut it out, please!

These petty mistakes are just mere sloppiness, which in its (!) turn is the result of coping with a noisy and smoky internet cafe.

They don't show anything.

Anyway, I KNOW when it should be "it's" or "its".

Are so-called native speakers always perfect in the English spelling?

[ilugru]

[quote="Jozef"]

"I'm aware that most language schools employ many teachers from their own country as well, but this means little consolation to me, because I'm from a so-called "third country".

And it's usually then, when the problem arises. "

Do you mean that a Polish teacher who has worked for IH Katowice, for example, has little chance of finding a job in, say, Chech Republic or Lithuania?

And it seems to me that the policy of employing teachers with proper certificates regardless of their nationality is typical for the whole IH system. One of my teachers, a native speaker by the way, used to have a DELTA (!) trainer who was from Belgium. Do you think that the teachers in Poland are only Polish or native speakers? Aren't their any Swedes, or, Mexicans, or Italians? That's interesting for me because I'm thinking of trying to find a job in some Eastern European countries as well, just for experience and because I'd like to get to know how the things are going on there, in comparison to Russia.

[Jorge]

Jozef, I was only teasing you! And I did say "or is the other way round?", meaning native speakers make that mistake.
Again, good luck in your finding a position.

[JZer]

Jozef, don't take it too personally. There are native speakers that have a hard time getting a job teaching English overseas since most governments require a passport from the U.S., UK, Canada, New Zeeland, or Australia to get a visa. Of course in Poland you should not need a visa since you are a citizen of the EU. Maybe there is a way to avoid showing your perspective employer that you are Dutch or maybe you can tell him that you are a native speaker but were born in the Netherlands and have never obtained a passport from England or the U.S.

Life is unfair and there is not a lot that you can do about it but I am sure that you will find a job. In 2004 I met a Dutch guy in Peru that was teaching English.

[gregoryfromcali]

Jozef,

I realise that it is hard to accept but you may also be interested to know that in Poland the Polish teachers are often paid half of what the native speakers are paid.

I think this may be one of the issues the school has. It would hard to pay the you the same as a native and then pay a Pole half, since they're only paid half because of their birth.

Yes I believe that being a native doesn't make you a great teacher, but the reality is there are idioms and phrasal verbs that usually only a native would know. The reality is they don't know what you know and being a business they simply don't want any problems.

Because, I can tell you that as an American that I have had problems getting a lot of hours compared to teachers from England when I first started working here that's because at the school I work at has a lot of students who prefer British English because they believe they'll be able "to pick up the accent and impress the examiners."

So you can imagine how students might react if they knew that their teacher wasn't a native while the students in the next classroom were being taught by a "native."

Life is unfair.

I recommend working in China there you won't have any problems finding work.

[ilugru]

Jozef, I have just talked to the DoS from IH Katowice, and, though he didn't give me a job, he was very kind to answer some of my questions concerning my chances to find a job with them or any other Polish school in the future. That's what he actually said about my being a non-native:

"First, the owners of the school are a bit nervous about employing non-natives, in particular from countries to the east of Poland. We have actually employed teachers from Russia, Ukraine and Georgia
before so it's not impossible, but the owners tend to demand a higher standard of applicant to 'compensate' for what they see as the disadvantages. Students prefer natives, so non-natives have to be really very good indeed to keep the students happy."

So, as you see, it is a major obstacle, but it's not the one you can't overcome. As for money, he pinpointed that I would receive 20% less only because my country doesn't have a tax agreement with Poland, but not because I'm a non-native. You need to take into account though, that IH is not the most generous of schools usually, but they have strong teacher training schemes. What I'm going to do is stay with my IH school for another year, go through all teacher training they can provide me with, possibly do DELTA next summer and then try to find a position in Europe. I think that's the way to success in my case and possibly in yours too.

[dagi]

"My native tongue is Dutch, and I'm fluent i six languages, and could therefore even teach five other languages besides English as well. "

Wow, I am impressed! Where did you learn all those languages?
Why don't you teach in a school in the Netherlands for a while to gain some teaching experience and then go abroad?

[Frizzie Lizzie]

Just curious, what happened to you, Jozef, did you manage to find a job?
Referring back to the previous post, I must say that I e-mailed one of the IH schools in Poland to find out if I could get a job there as a non-native English speaker. Despite a distinction in my CELTA course, and a DELTA recently completed, plus a number of other achievements, they said no. I'm not sure whether it's a non-EU, or non-nativity reason.
Demo-lessons might help if you're actually in the country.

[Kootvela]

Though this is an old post, here's what I can finally say: email them a week before the new term and you will be employed for there is always unexpected groups coming and the demand for teachers cannot be predicted in advance.