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Jon99
Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 5
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 Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:22 pm Post subject: General questions about teaching ESL/EFL in Asia |
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I'll just start by saying that I'm 24, I've just graduated from Univeristy in Canada with a BA in English, and I'm very interested in teaching English in either Taiwan or Japan. I've read the vast majority of the posts on these forums regarding Taiwan and Japan, and I've read the vast majority of the posts on the Journal thing regarding Taiwan and Japan. And I've come to the conclusion that it's nearly impossible to get a handle on what it's like over there since the opinion on almost every single aspect seems to be split about 50/50.
I'm not overly interested in immersing myself in the Asian culture (I'm not saying that I'm opposed to it, in fact I'd probably enjoy it, it's just not my primary motivation for wanting to do this). All I really want is to have a nice teaching job that isn't overly boring (preferrably actually enjoyable), a nice, clean apartment where I can get a nice tv, computer, and a comfy couch/chair. And I'd like to be able to bank a bit of cash so that if I decide to come back home, I'll have anough money to get settled away. And I don't drink or party really - I can easily entertain myself in my spare time with DVDs, video games, a good book, just walking around, and hanging with prospective friends.
Is this a realistic expectation? Or is this a pipe dream? And if it is realistic, would I have a better chance of achieving this in Taiwan or Japan, or would it make no difference?
I greatly appreciate any and all feedback 
Jonathan
ps - seeing as this will be my first time doing this, I feel a great deal safer signing on with one of the big chain schools (Nova or Hess or the like). I realize that may cost me a bit of $$, but I'd just feel far more comfortable with that arrangement for the first year. |
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Doglover
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 305
Location: Kansai
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:29 pm Post subject: Re: General questions about teaching ESL/EFL in Asia |
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| Jon99 wrote: |
| II'm not overly interested in immersing myself in the Asian culture (I'm not saying that I'm opposed to it, in fact I'd probably enjoy it, it's just not my primary motivation for wanting to do this). . |
There is no "Asian" culture. There is Japanese culture, Taiwanese culture, Chinese culture and Korean culture. Things such as language, food, customs, culture are not the same in each country and living in a big modern city such as Tokyo or Osaka it will feel like you are living in a big Canadian city. Living here you will be immersed in it as it will be all around you.
All the writing on shop windows and train stations will be in Japanese Kanji. The television, radio and announcements will all be in Japanese. If you are talking about getting involved in "Japanese" things such as kabuki or tea ceremony there is no oblgation to "go native" though that is why many people come here. With a full time 40-hour a week job and commuting job you probably wont have time to get heavily involved in outside interests anyway. Most of the people around you will be Japanese so its kind of hard to escape the cultural influence anyway. (p.s. the culture also includes things such as manga, pachinko, anime,karaoke and you may actually find you enjoy aspects of it.)
Can you see yourself spending 40 hours at a job every day, working with Japanese people, spending time with students in class whom you are not really interested in just so you can earn a pay check? Rather sad, really. If you are going to live here it will be all around you so you may as well get used to it. The money you earn is not that great but the experience is priceless. Very few people come here just for the money and I think it will be hard to sustain yourself if you dont actually ejoy or absorb your surroundings.
| Jon99 wrote: |
| IAll I really want is to have a nice teaching job that isn't overly boring (preferrably actually enjoyable), a nice, clean apartment where I can get a nice tv, computer, and a comfy couch/chair. . |
Some employers provide apartments which are are new and modern. They even have Internet access and cable TV. Other places are a bit older and you share with others and pay rent per person, not per room.
Apartments are small, maybe one or two rooms though it should be possible to buy a decent TV or computer, as they make them here. TVs come in all sizes, up to 45-50 inch screens or bigger that will cost you two months salary. It depends on the size of your wallet.
Furniture you can pick up in sayonara sales or they may be left behind by departing room mates.
Working for the large language schools they are pretty much all the same in style and format, the hours you work, the text books you use and the lessons you teach. Teaching itself is what you make it and the school is not there to entertain you. It is a JOB, 8 hours a day, it can get boring,. but on the whole most people enjoy teaching here and interacting with students. Only you can decide whether you get bored or not, and when you are first starting out, you dont get to choose your students or what you teach. Learn the job at hand first and then worry about your personal happiness later.
For more info on NOVA
http://www.vocaro.com/trevor/japan/nova/level_up.html
| Jon99 wrote: |
| And I'd like to be able to bank a bit of cash so that if I decide to come back home, I'll have anough money to get settled away. And I don't drink or party really - I can easily entertain myself in my spare time with DVDs, video games, a good book, just walking around, and hanging with prospective friends. . |
We cant help you there unless you are more specific in your money goals. On a NOVA salary you will probably start on about 250,000 yen a month. Spend half on bills and utilities and rent. After takiing out postage, video fees, entertainment you will have 40-50,000 yen which is about $CAN500. Going out for meals etc can be expensive and you can easily spend 10,000 yen or $120 on a night out. including taxi fares. A beer may cost you 700-800 yen and a few of those add up if you do it several times a week.
I dont know about you but my friends dont "hang out" but we might meet at a bar or a club or go for dinner. Chances are you will go out as a group after you knock off work and go for a meal somewhere. In big cities like Tokyo it may take an hour for people to commute to meet up somewhere so meeting up informally may be planned rather than spontaneous.
Some months you may not save anything out of your salary. on the JET program some teachers are sending home CAN$1000-1300 a month but NOVA teachers earn quite a bit less.
Decide how much you want to save, take it out of your paycheck before you spend it and live on the rest. With careful saving you could be saving CAN 6000-10,000 a year. That will depend on your spending habits and lifestyle.
| Jon99 wrote: |
| - seeing as this will be my first time doing this, I feel a great deal safer signing on with one of the big chain schools (Nova or Hess or the like). I realize that may cost me a bit of $$, but I'd just feel far more comfortable with that arrangement for the first year. |
Do you mean ECC?
If you are in Canada that is probably your best choice as it will mean flying here first and looking for a job as not many schools hire over the phone and grant visas without meeting you first.
I would suggest you come with a minimum of $CAN 3000-4000 as well as your plane ticket as you may not see a pay check for up to 2 months after you arrive. At NOVA you are on probation income the first two months and if you borrow money from them you will end up with a zero balance at the end of the month. You will need money for key money, a phone, perhaps the need to furnish an apartment if you dont rent from an employer. Money for emergencies such as medical or dental.
They will provide you some basic training in their methods, show you how to use the textbook and lessons and set you to work. Teach by Numbers mainly in the first 6 months. |
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Jon99
Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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Can you see yourself spending 40 hours at a job every day, working with Japanese people, spending time with students in class whom you are not really interested in just so you can earn a pay check? Rather sad, really. If you are going to live here it will be all around you so you may as well get used to it. The money you earn is not that great but the experience is priceless. Very few people come here just for the money and I think it will be hard to sustain yourself if you dont actually ejoy or absorb your surroundings.
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Maybe I didn't clarify that as well as I should have. For starters, I understand that all the different Asian countries have vastly different cultures, but since I was looking at more than one country, I simply said "Asian culture" as a generality to simplify.
And my point when I said I wasn't overly interested is that I believe that no matter where I am in the world the culture will have many things to offer, and I'm sure they're all enjoyable. But I don't rank Japan above anywhere else. A lot of people seem to go there simply to indulge in the culture, and while that may be appealing, I can indulge in whatever culture I'm in, wherever I am in the world - Japan holds no special significance to me. Thus, it's not the main reason I would come.
I want to teach now. Teaching jobs are far more plentiful over there than they are where I live now, and I don't have to spend one or two years at teacher's college to teach over there. That's the main drawing point for me. |
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Doglover
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 305
Location: Kansai
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Jon99 wrote: |
And my point when I said I wasn't overly interested is that I believe that no matter where I am in the world the culture will have many things to offer, and I'm sure they're all enjoyable. But I don't rank Japan above anywhere else. A lot of people seem to go there simply to indulge in the culture, and while that may be appealing, I can indulge in whatever culture I'm in, wherever I am in the world - Japan holds no special significance to me. Thus, it's not the main reason I would come.
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Jon, I really dont know much about working in other countries except what I see on the Internet.
Here are a couple of good sites on teaching in Taiwan and Korea, and I suggest you visit the country forums on this site. The Korea forum you need to register with the Site administrator
http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~jonb/
getting a job in Taiwan
http://scottsommers.blogs.com/taiwanweblog/getting_a_job_in_taiwan/index.html
I wont tell you what to do of course, but each country obviously is different, so I would consider whether you like the food, how you feel about the language and whether you like the people. Chinese people are quite different from japanese for example, especially with respect towards their attitudes towards foreigners.
So what is the reason you would come if I may be so bold as to ask? pay off student loans? escape parents or girlfriend? have a gap year?
| Jon99 wrote: |
A
I want to teach now. Teaching jobs are far more plentiful over there than they are where I live now, and I don't have to spend one or two years at teacher's college to teach over there. That's the main drawing point for me. |
You will get a variety of opinions and I dont want to be a wet blanket at this early stage.
Yes you are a conversation teacher and you are paid to teach English.
Keep in mind you will be paid to sit in a classroom with a student, who probably speaks next to no English. The lesson will be more like making conversation and getting the student to speak than explaining points of grammar. I liken teaching English to being like a basketball coach. Students already know the rules and how to play but the dont know how to use what they know. You are there to show them english pronunciation and usage. More as a conversation partner than as a pedagogue.
Most "teachers" come here with no training or experience whatsoever, students at a conversation do no homework, do no tests, and the only time they speak English is in your class.
You will work for a language school, but it will be more like a big Japanese company than a school. Students are considered by the company to be customers more than students, and the school is run as a profit-oriented enterprise. You are an employee and valued for your English speaking skills and your foreignness than your teaching ability.
You dont need to spend two years at training college to learn how to work in a conversation school and what you need to know you can learn in the first two weeks of work or in a good TESOL course. You wont learn how to become a great teacher in a month, that takes years and lots of experience, but you can get your feet wet by coming here and trying it for yourself.
I will add that what you learn about teaching in a conversation school wont help much if you get a teaching job back home, or in an international school or a proper educational setting. Working at NOVA is not rocket science, it is physically hard work and tiring, and it does get boring. Depending on the branch you may get sucked into office turf wars or personality politics so a lot depends on the school you are sent to. A language school is just buildings, but the school is also made up of the individual teachers, the office staff and students and one can not really say if you will have a positive experience or not. its really what you make of it and your attitude to dealing with individual situations, your aptitude for survival in a foreign culture, homesickness, culture shock etc. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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Why would signing on with one of the bigger companies cost you money? Some will reimburse you for airfare, as long as you stick it out with them for the duration of a one-year contract. Many don't, though.
Going with them actually saves you money, as I see it. You interview in your home country rather than in Japan. You don't have to fly here first and set yourself up with housing and spend 1-4 months looking for work and burning money in the process. Bigger places provide housing so that you can just move right in from the plane.
Your qualifications are pretty much the norm for many newbies in Japan, and unless you can afford to come here to look for work, you'll have to be content with the dozen or so places that hire from abroad and sponsor visas. As already written, the jobs are pretty generic. Same sort of teaching systems, same sort of benefits and salaries, etc. No pipe dream. |
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Jon99
Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:57 am Post subject: |
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I appreciate all the info Doglover
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So what is the reason you would come if I may be so bold as to ask? pay off student loans? escape parents or girlfriend? have a gap year?
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Honestly, I've wanted to become a teacher for quite a while, but after 6 years at university (I switched majors halfway through, long story hehe), I just can't handle going to a teacher's college or something for another year or two to get a teaching job here in Canada. Combine that with the difficulty of actually landing a steady teaching job, and the high cost of living and high tax rate over here, and being able to jump right into teaching in Asia, and make a decent amount of money and live relatively comfortably seemed like something I definitely had to look into.
I get what you're saying about how at a place like Nova it's not really 'teaching' so much as just chatting and being an employee of a business, but I still figured it's worth checking out. I find the kindergarten 'bushibans' (I think they're called) in Taiwan to be somewhat appealing, as I think it'd be fun to work with kids.
| Quote: |
Why would signing on with one of the bigger companies cost you money? Some will reimburse you for airfare, as long as you stick it out with them for the duration of a one-year contract. Many don't, though.
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I just meant that, from what I've read on here, you can make a higher wage if you seek out employment with private schools than you can with the big chain schools. I realize it'll cost you more initially to get set up, but like I said, I plan on applying through a chain school anyway.
Honestly, I'm just looking for a job I can enjoy, hopefully meet some fun people, and have a nice, clean, comfortable place to live. And if I'm lucky, save up enough money so that when I do come back home, I can afford to go to teacher's college without having to worry about loans or anything. And if I get hooked on the Japanese or Taiwanese culture and stay, then that works too  |
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Doglover
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 305
Location: Kansai
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| Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:47 am Post subject: |
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| Jon99 wrote: |
I
Honestly, I've wanted to become a teacher for quite a while, but after 6 years at university (I switched majors halfway through, long story hehe), I just can't handle going to a teacher's college or something for another year or two to get a teaching job here in Canada. Combine that with the difficulty of actually landing a steady teaching job, and the high cost of living and high tax rate over here, and being able to jump right into teaching in Asia, and make a decent amount of money and live relatively comfortably seemed like something I definitely had to look into.
) |
I wont bore you with a lecture, as everyone comes to japan for different reasons. Some are just out of university and want to pay off loans. Others want a break from study. others are into the "culture" and explore their interests further, however esoteric they may be. Not everyone wants to be gung ho and get an armful of degrees and CELTA and everything else. A few of us here do, and treat our jobs more as careers than fill-ins.
At entry level jobs like NOVA and ECC etc the turnover is quite high, most 'teachers work at their jobs for a couple of years before returning home and resuming their careers. People like me go for higher degrees and continiung education.
You can make decent money, but i will tell you the roads are not paved with gold here, the bubble burst in 1990 (I was here then too) and things are not like they were then. Jobs are more competitive, salaries are falling, Japan is flooded with people who can not get jobs at home and there is simply not enough good paying work.
You can get good jobs, but it takes time, money, discipline, hard work and connections. For the average person on the JET program a 3.6 million yen salary feels like they won the lottery and usually an airfare, medical pension and housing is thrown in as well. For conversation school jobs these are provided too, but many times you have to pay yourself and it takes at least a year before you get into the black and see real savings. You will also want to travel, buy things like computers, laptops, and see the country. This things eat into your budget and savings. It is possible to save money, but its also possible to stay here 3-5 years and not save a dime.
You make "decent" money relative to your experience, qualifications, what jobs you aspire to and what you can get based on your skills. Its a matter of you deciding what you want to earn and how far you want to go with your career. get a Masters in TESL for example and you can work at universities on a $50-60,000 a year salary. that buys a lot more than a $30K a year salary at NOVA, which is considered entry-level here.
Taxes are not so bad here, at about 7-8% but if you stay here longer more taxes will be added on e.g. a resident tax of 5% in your second year.
10% for medical insurance in year 2 onwards. 5% consumption tax. You could be paying up to a quarter of your income in taxes in your second or third year. Add to that you are renting, not paying of a mortgage and you are paying $700-800 in rent every month for a one room apartment.
| Jon99 wrote: |
I get what you're saying about how at a place like Nova it's not really 'teaching' so much as just chatting and being an employee of a business, but I still figured it's worth checking out. I find the kindergarten 'bushibans' (I think they're called) in Taiwan to be somewhat appealing, as I think it'd be fun to work with kids.
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Im going to get hammered for this, and though 95% of people who come here go through a place like NOVA or GEOS or JET program they are not teachers. NOVA does not require anything more than a university degree a smile and a pleasant personality. No previous training or experience is needed and having too much such as a teaching degree can make you overqualified. They look for blank slates who will do what they are told, dont rock the boat and turn up on time. They dont want prima donnas and education know-alls. They want you to turn up on time, teach your classes, dont come on to students and dont turn up drunk after a night out. Do that and you will get paid like clockwork every month.
NOVA for what its worth though its a bit of a cliche, is the ESL version of a fast food restaurant, except you are dishing out lessons instead of fries. Dont mess with the formula, learn as much as you can about teaching ESL here from your trainers (many of whom have never worked outside the company) develop some skills. Dont expect to re-invent the company but use it as a foot in the door. Some stay there for years will others will be gone in 6 months. Its up to you how long you stay there. Personally I think anything more than 2 years and it starts working against you.
| Quote: |
| I just meant that, from what I've read on here, you can make a higher wage if you seek out employment with private schools than you can with the big chain schools. I realize it'll cost you more initially to get set up, but like I said, I plan on applying through a chain school anyway. |
NOVA is a private school. its a privately run company with 250 branches and a CEO. You are thinking of a mom and pop school with a few teachers. i heard of a NOVA branch in Kyushu that has only 5 teachers. other big branches in Osaka have up to 30 or 40 teachers on the pay roll at that branch.
| Quote: |
| Honestly, I'm just looking for a job I can enjoy, hopefully meet some fun people, and have a nice, clean, comfortable place to live. And if I'm lucky, save up enough money so that when I do come back home, I can afford to go to teacher's college without having to worry about loans or anything. And if I get hooked on the Japanese or Taiwanese culture and stay, then that works too |
You will meet fun people, both Japanese and foreigner, though your biggest barrier will be language, and NOVA teachers tend to stick together or mix with Englis speaking Japanese or students. NOVA bans socialisation with students outside class so you will learn to mix and meet with other people. If you really want to 'go native' and learn the language, you avoid the NOVA teachers, the students who want to know you so they can speak English and the groupies.
I learnt Japanese by going into bars where there are no foriegners and I chat with the locals. Best way to see the country and learn the language than hang out and depend on expats for company and conversation. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:30 am Post subject: |
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How much do you consider a "decent salary"?
Most eikaiwas will pay you 250,000 - 280,000 yen/month, and you will burn half of that on basic necessities. (and, as Doglover has pointed out, wages are going down. Many eikaiwas are getting away with offering 180,000 to 220,000 yen/month. Barely enough to live on, as you will see below.)
How much in student loans do you have to pay off from the remainder? You will have only 125,000 or so to do EVERYTHING else in life, including paying off those loans.
Vacations are usually only during the 3 busiest times of the year, and that's when the travel and lodging rates go up. No savings there.
Go out just a couple times a week and drink/party conservatively, and you can burn 50,000 yen/month very easily. So from the 125,000 left over from your paycheck, you will have only 75,000 per month to spend on everything else in life. Cable TV, video/DVD rentals, long distance phone calls, a magazine, a postage stamp, souvenirs, a trip out of town, a visit to the museum or castle, emergency medical care that isn't covered by your insurance (or even the whole bill if your insurance pays for 100% but wants you to pay for all of it up front), gifts, photo developing and film, photocopying, etc.
You've already spent 6 years in college and now want to come here to get something for teaching experience? Sorry, but schools back home won't think a lot of NOVA experience when you come knocking on their doors.
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| I just can't handle going to a teacher's college or something for another year or two to get a teaching job here in Canada. |
Well, you might just have to if you ever return to Canada. Sure, after a year at NOVA, you can put your hat in the ring to get a high school job or ALT position, but your teaching experience there is STILL not comparable to that in a Canadian school. (Read that last sentence carefully because you can't just waltz into a high school job here. You need the experience teaching here first.) I've worked in eikaiwa and in a private HS here. Not a whole lot of difference in teaching techniques when you come down to it. HS has bigger classes, but you are STILL faced with students with very low levels of English ability, and you aren't their grammar teacher. You are their OC (oral communication) teacher (read: more eikaiwa style).
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| I think it'd be fun to work with kids. |
In your own language, this might be appealing. But,when you consider that you will face kids with practically zero ability to communicate with you here, that's another story. Think more about this. |
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Doglover
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 305
Location: Kansai
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| Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 6:01 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
H
In your own language, this might be appealing. But,when you consider that you will face kids with practically zero ability to communicate with you here, that's another story. Think more about this. |
A growth sector in language teaching is teaching kindergarten and elementary school up to sixth grade. Many teachers now get jobs as ALTs working in Japanese elementary schools. This is a bit out of my technical expertise but the biggest complaint Japanese elementary school home room teachers (who for the most part have zero English skills and zero training in English language teaching as they are not taught to teach English at university, and they assist the ALT in an oral class) is the lack of ability to communicate adequately (huge language barrier for most) with foreign teachers who do not speak Japanese, the lack of professionalism of said ALTs as they are not trained teachers but foreigners hired straight off the boat; the lack of ability to plan and execute a lesson for classes of up to 30 kids, and teaching anything from 6 to 11 year olds;
Teaching kids and conducting an elementary class requires coordination, planning and skill, its not just singing songs and playing games which is what most schools seem to want. The schools want fun lessons, but they want the children to learn as well, and the teacher must be able to teach kids who know NO English, have NO grammar and have never cracked a textbook in their short lives. They must also be able to function in the teacher room and classroom of a Japanese public elementary school where virtually no one speaks English and you will be the only foreigner in the school.
I saw a teacher teach a class of thirty 6 year olds last week and he had them eating out of his hand and that takes skill and training. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| Jon99 wrote: |
I
Honestly, I've wanted to become a teacher for quite a while, but after 6 years at university (I switched majors halfway through, long story hehe), I just can't handle going to a teacher's college or something for another year or two to get a teaching job here in Canada. Combine that with the difficulty of actually landing a steady teaching job, and the high cost of living and high tax rate over here, and being able to jump right into teaching in Asia, and make a decent amount of money and live relatively comfortably seemed like something I definitely had to look into. |
IF you want to become a teacher in Canada, I assume that means you want to teach a particular subject at a high school, to native speakers of English. You will obviously need a degree and a teaching licence to teach in Canada and a background in your chosen subject
Teaching English to non-native speakers is not the same as teaching English to Canadians back home, and anything you pick up here will only be useful for teaching in Japan, or if you want to continue an ESL teaching career outside Canada.
It is possible to make a teaching career in Japan or elsewhere teaching English and such jobs do not really translate into useful skills back home, unless you combine them with other things e.g. teaching other languages, computer skills etc.
There are ESL teaching jobs in Canada, but to find work you generally need a minimum of a Masters degree, lots of teaching experience and the work is mainly part time. At least thats the way it is in Australia, teaching foreign students. Pay is not very good teaching ESL I believe in Canada and I would imagine after 6 months back home you will be finding ways to come back to Japan again.
You say you want to go back to Canada which is fine, but at the same time at some point you will have to go back to training college and get your teaching licence. The point I am making is teaching back home at a high school is one path. Teaching ESL on a semi-professional long term basis is another, and that may even mean long term plans to re-settle outside Canada. Gordon a regular here is Canadian, has been here about 4 or 5 years, and is raising 2 kids here. Maybe you can ask him about his experience.
I will also point out, and this happens to many of us, is that you actually get too comfortable with the cushy lifestyle, house full of furniture, trips to Thailand etc, and one year rolls into five and you are stiil here renewing your contract every year and acquiring more possessions, even houses. Some people end up never going home. I am one of them. Be careful what you wish for becuase you may actually get it and two pennies worth of free advice if i may, is to have some kind of exit strategy, a medium to a long term plan say what you plan to do in three or four years, and how you plan to execute it. Moving back after a few years is hard, especially after a few years on the Japan gravy train.
I have seen people get stuck here, even get married and find they can not leave Japan, they have a wife and kid and they have limited job skills to support a family back home, but do OK teaching for a living. They do OK, but they wouldnt teach English if they had a choice, and end up in a career rut, from which there is little or no escape.
Its very easy to say you plan to go home and this that and the other, but Life has a way of throwing unexpected curveballs at you when you become an expat for a long period. |
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