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travelinhobo
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 35
Location: U.S.
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 Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:34 pm Post subject: Questions of a Semi-Newbie |
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Hi everyone-
I've been putting off getting a TESOL cert. for a couple of years, but I'm going to do it now. Even tho I've read this site and others for a while, I still have some newbie questions I hope you experienced people can help me with.
1. Do you have to be in your native country to acquire a visa for school hire? I'm assuming no, since people go abroad, get the cert. and job at the same time. But would like to know for sure.
2. What is the average amount of time for finding a position while/after obtaining the certificate? ( have experience at 1 on 1 teaching, but no degree)
3. From experience which is better - monthly salary or hourly?
4. How easy/common is it to find positions in the same city/country of training?
5. This will sound like a dumb question, but it's not. Clothing - how much to bring if you're going to a 4-season region? I always bring my bike with me when I travel (that way I can tour when I want and don't have to worry about purchasing all the needed equipment again), which cuts down on space for packing. Any thoughts.
Thanks for any and all input. |
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WYSIWYG
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 149
Location: It's good to be in my own little world. We all know each other here!
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| I'm sure all of the answers to your questions vary by location. Where is it you plan to go? |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:25 am Post subject: |
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1. Do you have to be in your native country to acquire a visa for school hire? I'm assuming no, since people go abroad, get the cert. and job at the same time. But would like to know for sure.
No you don't have to be in your home country to get the visa, but with the exception of working holiday visa, you have to apply in the foreign country, not your own, to get it.
2. What is the average amount of time for finding a position while/after obtaining the certificate? ( have experience at 1 on 1 teaching, but no degree)
Hugely general question that depends on what country you're in, qualifications, employers, hiring season, etc. As WYSIWYG wrote, where do you want to go?
3. From experience which is better - monthly salary or hourly?
Probably monthly, but if you are into overtime, then who knows?
4. How easy/common is it to find positions in the same city/country of training?
The bigger the city, the more opportunities there are.
5. This will sound like a dumb question, but it's not. Clothing - how much to bring if you're going to a 4-season region? I always bring my bike with me when I travel (that way I can tour when I want and don't have to worry about purchasing all the needed equipment again), which cuts down on space for packing. Any thoughts.
Pack for the first 2 seasons that you plan to be there. Have the rest shipped 4-6 weeks before the 3rd season begins.
Don't bring a bike. You can probably get cheap ones anywhere in the world. Unless you are "married" to that particular brand/style of bike and absolutely cannot do without for some inexplicable reason, save the hassle and get one wherever you go. |
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Girl Scout
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 525
Location: Inbetween worlds
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:01 am Post subject: |
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( have experience at 1 on 1 teaching, but no degree)
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Be careful. If by this statement you mean that you don't have a 4 year univeristy degree your job prospects become very narrow. Most countries in Asia require at least a BA to obtain a resident permit. |
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Doglover
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 305
Location: Kansai
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:32 am Post subject: |
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Rather long, but I recommend you read the thread given to an 18 year old Canadian girl who has no degree but an online TESL certificate. Sage words of advice on this thread for people without degrees.
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?t=23455&start=0
Whether you get jobs is not so much your skills and training but whether you qualify for a visa in that country, which country you want to work in, and if you satisfy job specs for the particular position you are seeking.
Trying to apply for jobs from home (and taking your chances with email and phone interviews, travelling to distant cities to meet company reps etc) vs. your willingness to travel abroad to find work and attend interviews something you need to consider in your job search too.
Your choices are limited when you dont have a degree as you can not work on a tourist visa and many employers either require you can get a valid work visa, or you must apply within the country for jobs. Very few employers will agree to hire you on a tourist visa.
The person in the above thread with no degree has sent over 500 emails to employers with little success. |
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travelinhobo
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 35
Location: U.S.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:55 am Post subject: Thanks for the comments |
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Thanks for the comments. This was the exact reason why I've been putting it off this long. Everytime I think it's a good idea, too many responses come back that it's not. I do have extensive experience in teaching, but as I said, it's only 1 on 1.
Doglover - Iread the attached thread you sent. How depressing! One has to wonder why there are so many posts on this and other sites for ESL teachers not requiring a uni degree if it's impossible to find companies that will hire you. I know there are a number of Asian countries which require the degree (sorry, but there's so many better things to be done with my money and time), but I know there are a few which don't. And I don't know about E. Europe or Russia. I do wonder what percentage of jobs are acquired via the internet, and not person to person.? |
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Doglover
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 305
Location: Kansai
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:15 am Post subject: Re: Thanks for the comments |
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| travelinhobo wrote: |
| Doglover - Iread the attached thread you sent. How depressing! One has to wonder why there are so many posts on this and other sites for ESL teachers not requiring a uni degree if it's impossible to find companies that will hire you. |
Without sounding like an elitist snob (and I have been doing this a long time, with a well paying job in Japan, including teaching at conversation schools)
ESL is one of the few occupations in the world where no more is needed to get a paying job than a native ability in the language, a sunny and outgoing personality, a typed up fancy resume, and a current passport and a few thousand dollars in start up funds. There are literally billions of people learning English in Asia and the world, demand for teachers outstrips supply of native speakers to teach the language. This is combined with the belief of young people everywhere that if you can speak English, no matter whether you have not actually had any experience teaching, got any training, nor whether you can actually obtain a work visa, they have this idea that they are owed a job teahcing english as a right.
In Japan the government and Min of education here employs 4000 people, mostly out of university, every year on the JET program, 90% of whom have no previous experience or training whatsoever.
The whole thread above was intended to disabuse that notion. Here you have an 18 year old Chinese-Canadian, freshman at university who could not get it through her head that she was virtually unemployable.
I spend a lot of time on the Japan forum dealing with similar people, who have tourist visas, working holiday visas, IT backgrounds who spend hours and hours working out how to get around visa and immigration laws and trying get a job here in a new and unrelated field, no matter how menial and low paying. Im not saying that they shouldnt, but if you look at it, how many people do the same thing when they go into law, medicine, or even teaching back home? An 18 year old trying to get a teaching job with real students with no qualifications or training would be laughed out of the classroom. as one of my former employers once said when i was starting out "you are not even a teachers armpit yet".
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| And I don't know about E. Europe or Russia. I do wonder what percentage of jobs are acquired via the internet, and not person to person.? |
There is absolutely no way of knowing. You are talking about dozens of countries, millions of people sitting behind computers like this, tapping away and firing off resumes to thousands of employers in foreign countries. im in Japan and eevn i dont know the figures just for one country. NOVA doesnt even say how many people it interviews, how many it rejects every week and how many people walk in off the street looking for work.
Anyway, it really comes down to your ability to actually follow through on the deal. Any one can get a job lined up, but then it means actually selling your belongings and car, getting a visa, buying a plane ticket and actually putting you butt in a plane seat. How many people actually end up where they say they will? No one knows. |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:24 am Post subject: |
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I answered the exact same poster and her questions in the General Discussion forum as follows:
These questions are those of an encyclopedically-minded person rather than a cosmopolitan interested in getting the feel of a different place and its people.
Going abroad entails more risks than staying put, and if you are not willing to accept these risks you should tour the world in the company of like-minded high-flyers who pay for their luxury.
Teaching English needs more than just fluency in one's first tongue - and this often shows in your performance.
IT's not quite true that native speakers of English are universally accepted even without having adequate training and educational backgrounds; these are ever more high on the recruiters' minds, and rightly so I might add. QWith the right quals you wil;l get jobs that comwe with privileges AND duties: you have to stay for the specified period of employment, usually one year. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| One has to wonder why there are so many posts on this and other sites for ESL teachers not requiring a uni degree if it's impossible to find companies that will hire you. |
People without uni degrees are just as eager to teach abroad as the rest. No harm in that. Some are able to manage it with the right situations (like working holiday visa or dependent visa or spouse visa). Despite those perfectly legitimate conditions, many still find it hard because they have only met the first hurdle -- immigration's requirements -- and they have yet to overcome barriers placed on them by employers. That is, many employers would rather see their teachers have degrees.
Like Doglover and Roger, I also spend a lot of time on this forum and others giving advice to prospective teachers, mostly in Japan.
People without the basic requirements for work visas often complain. Some let it go. Some go back for the right qualifications. And, then, there are the ones who doggedly stick to their guns and continue complaining in a way that makes it sound like the world owes them a good job just because they are hard-working, persistent people.
I won't say much about the person from that other thread, except to say that if you have read it, you can judge for yourself whether she was properly or fully qualified. I hope to hear more from her situation if she actually lands the job, but I don't think we'll ever know. People who get involved in such long threads on this sort of topic never seem to come back to update us. |
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travelinhobo
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 35
Location: U.S.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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I have to say that of all the forums on different subjects I've been on, I have never encountered such rude people. You seem to think of me as some lazy, assed person who doesn't know squat and wants to get by by minimal work. You are very wrong. I have extensive experience in teaching English, love doing it, and that is the reason why I want to do it. However, I have never been a conformist and have never been able to justify spending 4 years sitting behind a desk, listening to someone else's opinion and then being tested on it. It boggles my mind as to why a language school would require a degreed person, but have no requirements on teaching experience. Just because you have a certificate or degree, does not mean that you can teach, or that you will enjoy doing so. If this were the case, the college I'm currently attending would have much better instructors. I don't know about outside the states, but inside, the quality of professors and teaching has drastically dropped in the past 10-15 years. Another reason I can't justify wasting my money in this way.
Now that I have vented, you rude people may go pick on someone else. |
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ls650
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 3484
Location: British Columbia
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| Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| travelinhobo wrote: |
| It boggles my mind as to why a language school would require a degreed person, but have no requirements on teaching experience. |
I think that more than anything else, the degree requirement is simply to keep out the "riff raff". A degree from an accredited institute is easily verifiable, and makes for a simple benchmark when hiring.
You may well have taught at a language school and done a great job, but that's pretty difficult to verify with a phone call. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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travelinhobo,
Can't really understand how you figure people here are so rude. I can easily suggest a much more rude ESL/EFL site if you want to compare.
One major problem in this thread is simply that you haven't stated where you want to go. Can't very well give you straight answers without that information.
Don't want to conform? Ok, that's your business, but don't knock the rest of the world that does, including those who try to meet visa requirements and degree requirements. That's not a rude statement; that's reality. |
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Doglover
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 305
Location: Kansai
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| Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| travelinhobo wrote: |
| IHowever, I have never been a conformist and have never been able to justify spending 4 years sitting behind a desk, listening to someone else's opinion and then being tested on it. It boggles my mind as to why a language school would require a degreed person, but have no requirements on teaching experience. Just because you have a certificate or degree, does not mean that you can teach, or that you will enjoy doing so. |
You cant see the point of sitting behind a desk for four years, but its perfectly OK to expect people to sit behind their desks and listen to your opinions even though you have not been able to academically prove yourself. A degree doesnt mean you can teach but you should at least be able to do yourself what you are asking your students to do for you. Practice what you preach.
Degrees in this part of the world are required for work visas, and in Japan many great teachers teach without degrees but they make up the minority of people who can work here. Whatever you may think of teachers at university language schools require people with a certain level of intellect and maturity that can handle themselves in a classroom and appear professional.
You only need to visit the China and Korea forums to see the quality of teachers who do not have a degree and act like children. I certainly wouldnt want them teaching my kids. People like Ms Jana on the other forum are another example of a person who would be out of her depth and lacks the emotional maturity to function in a professional environment |
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mlomker
Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 378
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| People like Ms Jana on the other forum are another example of a person who would be out of her depth and lacks the emotional maturity to function in a professional environment |
I'm getting the impression that the OP is of the same variety. He has a sense of entitlement that doesn't seem warranted. The only rudeness that I've seen in a couple threads involving this OP has come from him. |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Well, travelinhobo,
you have chosen an most appropriate name but you should not expect the rest of us to be of the same kind. Thanks for your PM, by the way; you wrote you have extensive travelling experience... does that equate to teaching English experience - in your own opinion?
You may consider teaching as a means to travel around the world; I don't! I personally feel alienated from people who think "investing money" in their own education is "a waste". It is this risk-taking that enables people like yourselves to travel around the world - your students are often self-paying customers in training centres. I think you owe it to them to upgrade your own education before you impart some of it!
If you still feel you are a great asset to any employer, consider this: your worth increases proproitonate to the number of languages you master yourself! |
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