| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
|
 Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 11:30 pm Post subject: Using translations???? |
 |
|
| Quote: |
| A book translated into English is perfectly legitimate in an ESL course. |
To all experienced ESL teachers, do you agree or disagree with this statement? I am not expressing my opinion. I just want to see what experienced ESL teachers think about this.
Thanks for your help! |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
ls650
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 3484
Location: British Columbia
|
| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 11:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If it is a good translation, I see no problem.
And stop trying to start yet another bloody flamewar with moonraven. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Doglover
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 305
Location: Kansai
|
| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 11:53 pm Post subject: Re: Using translations???? |
|
|
| JZer wrote: |
To all experienced ESL teachers, do you agree or disagree with this statement? I am not expressing my opinion. I just want to see what experienced ESL teachers think about this.
Thanks for your help! |
If you have no opinion about it then why do you want to know? Nobody asks about these things unless they have a specific reason or a hidden agenda. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
|
| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 4:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Nobody asks about these things unless they have a specific reason or a hidden agenda. |
I want to see what others think, independant of my opinion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
|
| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 4:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| And stop trying to start yet another bloody flamewar with moonraven. |
Why does it matter to you whether moonraven and I fight with each other? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dmb
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 8397
|
| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 7:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| So what is your opinion? I think there is nothing wrong with it, although I guess it depends on how good the translation is. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Doglover
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 305
Location: Kansai
|
| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 7:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| JZer wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Nobody asks about these things unless they have a specific reason or a hidden agenda. |
I want to see what others think, independant of my opinion. |
FWIW
If the translated version is in correct grammatical English and the work is at the same reading level of the particular student there is nothing wrong with it IMO. There are literally thousands of authors who write in languages other than English, and some of them have won international awards, and their works translated into English. No reason why they shouldnt be used as reading material. Its not like it will make you go cross-eyed and students are getting the required comprehensible input.
I did see a post somewhere about using authentic or non-ESL directed texts in the ESL/EFL language classroom and thats another point to consider. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
|
| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 8:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
Doglover, I would say that it is rarely a good idea to use translated text in a foreign language classroom whether it be ESL, Spanish, or German. One reason is that great works of literature are read in a foreign language classroom is so that students can learn about the writing styles, literary movements, and the cultures of the countries that speak the target language. Rarely would a translated text provide students with cultural information about the forign language or teach students about the literary movements within the target language.
There are cases in which it would be useful to teach translated text. An example would be if you were teaching students at a school that laregely prepared students to study at colleges that were in English. Then it would make a lot of sense to introduce the students to great works of literature translated into English. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sara Avalon
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 254
Location: On the Prowl
|
| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 9:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
| JZer wrote: |
Doglover, I would say that it is rarely a good idea to use translated text in a foreign language classroom whether it be ESL, Spanish, or German. One reason is that great works of literature are read in a foreign language classroom is so that students can learn about the writing styles, literary movements, and the cultures of the countries that speak the target language. Rarely would a translated text provide students with cultural information about the forign language or teach students about the literary movements within the target language.
|
I strongly disagree. There is nothing wrong with using translated texts so long as they are of perfect quality and quantity. You should not automatically assume that translated texts are of a poor quality. There are some very educated authors that translate texts. Quite often, because the work is translated for a non-native audience, an author will include cultural notes and references to help the readers understand what the context may be. It would even be a good idea to use translated texts because they can be readily purchased by the students. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Doglover
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 305
Location: Kansai
|
| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 9:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| JZer wrote: |
Doglover, I would say that it is rarely a good idea to use translated text in a foreign language classroom whether it be ESL, Spanish, or German. One reason is that great works of literature are read in a foreign language classroom is so that students can learn about the writing styles, literary movements, and the cultures of the countries that speak the target language. Rarely would a translated text provide students with cultural information about the forign language or teach students about the literary movements within the target language.
|
So what would happen if you didnt know books were translations? things like Pippi Longstocking and books by Henrik Ibsen were written in Swedish. Haruki Murakami was written in Japanese. Books by Jean paul Sartre are world famous and they were written in French
Students can learn about writing styles as its not the translator writing the book but the author, It is the translators job to provide a faithful and accurate rendition of the authors work though.
When reading a translation you are are not trying to find out about the original language the text was written in as you are reading English. Not sure what you mean by cultural information though as its not a foriegn language lesson.
PS I think Glenski has written on this somewhere but in the case of japan, students are at a fairly low level of comprehension and understanding, they are used to having texts translated into Japanese by the teacher than reading the original in English. Many foreign students have no idea how to search for imagery and style, even in their own languages. Doing the same in English is too much for ESL learners. You aer asking them to run before they can walk, and exposing them to texts in English, even if translated accurately does just that. A skilled teacher can teach imagery etc but you are still giving them accurate comprehensible input which is what students need.
| JZer wrote: |
D
There are cases in which it would be useful to teach translated text. An example would be if you were teaching students at a school that laregely prepared students to study at colleges that were in English. Then it would make a lot of sense to introduce the students to great works of literature translated into English. |
So If I had japanese students studying to go to the US I would use translated copies of Faust and Sartre. Not sure what good it would do.
Anyway what would happen if you didnt know the English text was actually a translation? Some foreign writers who speak other languages sometimes write the original piece in English. Does that make it less valid and acceptable because its not by a native speaker though content is understandable? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Moore
Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 730
Location: Madrid
|
| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 10:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| To ease my better students towards reading novels in English, I urge my Spanish students to try reading a book that�s translated from Spanish into English: it will have a familiar ideas, structure and style, and when they�ve read a few of them they are fine moving on to properly foreign books. I only do it because I noticed it helped me when I was learning French and Spanish and it seems to work with them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
|
| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 1:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Quote:
A book translated into English is perfectly legitimate in an ESL course.
To all experienced ESL teachers, do you agree or disagree with this statement? I am not expressing my opinion. I just want to see what experienced ESL teachers think about this. |
Depends on several factors.
1. The book. Is it a science textbook or a novel or a comic book or a book of poetry or an historical perspective on apartheid?
2. The students. Are they ready for such material? What level are they vs. level of the book? What exactly do you intend to do with the book? How old are the students?
3. The course. Are you analyzing the book, using snippets for some specific purpose, reading to enjoy it, etc.? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
|
| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 2:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| PS I think Glenski has written on this somewhere but in the case of japan, students are at a fairly low level of comprehension and understanding, they are used to having texts translated into Japanese by the teacher than reading the original in English. |
I should have been clearer. I do not mean translating the book into the students native language but reading a book that was originaly in German or French in English for an ESL class. The question is whether it makes sense to read Les Miserables or Faust in it the EFL classroom. To begin with I do not think that it would be useful in many cases because I doubt that there are so many students that would understand these text translated into English and if the students were at a higher level in which they could read text well they would be taking a class on British Literature or American Literature.
Last edited by JZer on Wed May 04, 2005 3:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
|
| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 3:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| You should not automatically assume that translated texts are of a poor quality. |
Sara Avalon, I am not saying that because I believe the text are of a poor quality. The reason that I do not think that using translated text is a good idea in most cases is that one of the goals of a foreign language classroom whether it is EFL, Spanish, or German is to teach students about the cultures. This idea is based from the 5 C's for foreign language learning that was developed by the American Council on the teaching of foreign languages. Maybe the Canadian, British, and Australian systems teache a totally different method.
One of the goals of this method is for foreign language students to learn about the cultures that use the language and the belief that students cannot master the language until they have mastered the cultural context in which the language is used.
If students are reading translated works from a different country then they are using this class time doing something that is not really what is being targeted in a foreign language classroom. The students can read this famous text in their native language(in many cases, I know that there are countries in which the text are not translated into the students native language). In some cases it might be OK to use a translated work. One example would be if the students were discussing how imigrants in America or England are treated. There may be good translated text from people who wrote about their imigrant experiences living in the U.S. or England in their native language that have been translated into English. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
moonraven
Joined: 24 Mar 2004
Posts: 3094
|
| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 4:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
JZ:
Why don't you just give it a rest? Starting a new thread in order to argue with me is just plain silly--and yes, something a 15 year old with not much going for him would do.
People can use whatever translations they want to in EFL classes--even if they translated the works themselves from Urdu. There is such a thing as academic freedom--which, if you really WERE a graduate student, you would be aware of.
It's not the material that makes a class effective--it's how it is presented by the teacher and what students do with it that decides its usefulness. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
