Job Discussion Forums

[PAULH]

I am having a heated discussion on Gaijinpot where I disapprove of the use of some words like "Gaijin used by native speakers of English when speaking to other English speakers in English.

e.g. Do most gaijins teach English in Japan?

Aside from the discriminatory nature of "gaijin" I just wondered what posters feel about "inserting" buzz Japanese words into English sentences as though they are part of an in-group of Japan-residents?

What do you think about mixing Japanese and English like this?

[Zzonkmiles]

I personally think some words simply either don't translate well into English or are so much easier to express using the actual Japanese word. For example:

携帯　(keitai) mobile phone
地下道　(chikadou) underground walkway
商店街　(shoutengai) shopping arcade
駅前　(ekimae) in front of the station
快速　(kaisoku) express (train)
親父　(oyaji) old man

"Meet me at the shoutengai."
"I forgot my keitai!"
"Let's wait for the kaisoku."

Those are words that we commonly see and use everyday.

I do agree that it's kinda stupid, however, to use Japanese words for words that the average foreigner wouldn't know without doing a bit of studying first. For example:

"Did you wasureru (forget) to take the keys for your jitensha (bicycle)?"
"I think this food is really sugoi (good/bad/whatever)."
"It is so samui (cold) in here!"
"A kuruma (car) is coming!"
"Looks like ame (rain), huh?"

As for "gaijin," the word itself doesn't bother me as much as the context in which it is used. In my office, my coworkers use the word "gaijin" fairly often. Even I use it when talking about other foreigners with them. We're on good terms and everyone is quite friendly with me, bringing me gifts and whatnot. When I hear one of them say "gaikokujin," I feel like they're being overly polite or are trying too hard not to hurt my feelings.

Because "gaijin" is a Japanese word or contraction of a Japanese word, the sheer power of it is lost on me. It's like when Japanese people say "f--k you!" when they're drunk. It's not their native language, so they don't really know the full nuance that the word has. That's why the word doesn't offend me so much. Obviously, if some oyaji is saying "go home, gaijin!" in Japanese, then it's much more offensive.

[canuck]

I rarely hear alien registration card. It's usually gaijin card. I also think the word gaijin isn't offensive generally. I believe it's how it's said, which is more important. I can be offensive, just like many words in English.

[JimDunlop2]

Hmm.. Well, how about I give you the perspective of someone who has either no mother tongue, or two of them, depending on the linguist you argue with.

In our home growing up, we spoke both English and Czech. It was not unusual for us to mix both languages, using words, phrases, sentences or even entire conversations in either language. What it came down to, was what came into your head first. If my mind produced a Czech word, then that's what would come out of my mouth. If it were an English word, then the opposite would happen. As such, there was no rhyme or reason to when this would happen. Although, certain topics were usually discussed preferentially in one language over another. For instance, I can't remember ever talking about sex in Czech, nor can I ever remember talking about politics in English.

Then, when I started my French Immersion education, the trend continued with French, although the teachers discouraged it and in time, through many, many years, we were eventually taught to speak more-or-less pure French... At least as much as was reasonable within the cultural constraints of the language. Until fairly recently, you could safely refer to your car's steering wheel as "le steering" or "le volant." You would use "le handbrake" or "le frein a main." Nowadays, efforts are being made to "clean up" the language and avoid what the French call "anglicismes."


Even now, I often mix Japanese with English when I speak with people, especially my wife. She is not Japanese, but Canadian like me. (Raised, monolingual, by the way).

I always use "keitai" instead of cell phone. "Genki" is almost second nature. If I want to say "How are you?" I just say, "Genki?" I always use "eki" to mean train station and "sugoi" when something amazing happens. I also use words like "okashi, omiyage, gohan, genkan, shoji, terebi, eakon, denwa, etc...." as naturally as if I had always spoken Japanese. Again, what it comes down to is what pops into my head first.

I try to keep it to a bare minimum when I speak with other English-speakers, especially if they haven't lived here for a while. But sometimes, I admit, people have gotten lost in conversations I have with my wife...

As for the word "gaijin," I'm not going to re-hash what I've already said about it in other threads. You can "Search" for it if you like, but sufficed to say, I hate the word. I personally think it's offensive, degrading, and should be done away with. If any Japanese person uses it within my earshot, I usually give them an earful. Using Japanese words in daily conversation, IMHO, is a COMPLETELY seperate issue than using the word "gaijin."

[PAULH]

One point I ought to mention: there is no plural "-s" in Japanese as in English and it seems odd that foreigners say "2 gaijins" where they won't say tomodachi-s or "densha-s" by adding an -s on the end. Japanese certainly would think it strange that we make purely Japanese words plural in this way.

I guess many of you say "keitai-s" for two keitai....its almost like they have become Anglicised Japanese words.

[Gordon]

I don't see any problem in mixing the two languages, within reason as Zzonkmiles stated. I also think it does reinforce the language when we are learning it.
I also don't see a problem when 2 gaijin use the word "gaijin". It all comes down to the intent of the meaning of the word and we certainly aren't discriminating ourselves. With Japanese people, I use gaikokujin.

[madeira]

I guess it'll depend on the amount of Japanese you mix into your English, but I use Japanese nouns with English grammar. (My J/E ratio is maybe 1:100) One jinbei, 2 jinbeis. Seven mama-charis in the river.

[stretch]

Like it was said earlier some words just don't translate well and they are great to pull into our language. ex. She's really genki girl.
As for the gaijin thing. Whatever! That topic has been beaten to death. Personally, I don't care who uses it. Only how the use it. If I here a little kid say "mommy look a foreigner" I don't care. The village I lived was small and never saw anything but Japanese so who can blame the kid. However, if someone called me a "stupid foreigner" well then I'll take offence to that. FWIW, my in laws are Japanese and they use the word gaijin. Ok, so during the war Japanese used the term in a derogatory way. But how did they use the word before the war? Look at the Kanji for the word. It translates to outside person...guess what, that pretty much sums up foreigner. Ok, I think that ends my tirade for now. I think I need a coffee.

[guest of Japan]

Mixing the languages doesn't bother me much. In fact, sometimes it can be pretty impressive. Your average foreign teacher (myself included) faces limitations on the Japanese, but if you observe international high school students or Japanese who have lived abroad for a long time it can be astounding. In these cases the languages spoken are usually woven together perfectly. The speakers simply use the language that most effectively conveys the thought or emotion they want to get across.

At low levels of second language proficiency it can get annoying at times, especially if it occurs in communication between speakers of opposite languages. It never stops ticking me off when I'm speaking Japanese with someone and I get hung up on a bit of vocabulary or grammar and the other speaker tries to straighten out the meaning of the conversation by translating the most simple words in it. When those simple words are thrown into the conversation more naturally it is less annoying, but sometimes seems silly.

Words like keitai, gaijin, shinkansen, and genki almost seem like English to me at this point. So all you genki gaijin with jozu nihongo knock yourself out. I do agree with PaulH though - don't give them plural forms.

[PAULH]

Thanks for all the responses

My main beef was not so much with code-switching between japanese and English when you have two speakers speaking two different native languages- it was when two native speakers of English use Japanese words such as on this forum that I got annoyed. They would put one or two words (like gaijin, as a common example) into a completely grammatical English sentence) and they are generally not fluent or proficient speakers of Japanese. Why use a Japanese word with another native speaker when an English one is available.

I just thought it odd that foreigners would "speak" Japanese to each other but I guess that happens when words get absorbed into your lexicon after living here a long time or words become almost like English to a small select group of people. I guess words like "Shakai Hoken" have also almost become an English word in its own right than "Social Welfare Insurance" and "keitai" for mobile phone.

[kylemory]

its really no different from japanese absorbing english words into their lexicon. for example, i was talking to a high school student of mine, and he was amazed that what in america we call the volleyball move "spike" where in japan, they call it "attack". i thought it was funny that they use an english word, but its a completely different one. or when my salaryman (another strange term for me) said that his day was very good because it was "high tension".. i usually wouldnt call a tense day a good one, but in japan (at least in kansai) its pretty common.
as for the plural gaijins, its similar to japanese people recognizing "surfing shimasuka?" but not "surf shimasuka?" as i found out when talking to a japanese friend.
and i prefer being called "ki chi ku bei" (demon-animal from america) to gaijin.

[Sherri]

My (former) boss in Japan had a big problem with non-Japanese people using Japanese words mixed into their English. He hated it. So I learned early on not to do it at work. I do find it annoying as a rule, especially when people who don't know Japanese try to pepper their sentences with the odd Japanese word, or even worse fillers like "ne" or "desho". I REALLY dislike it when someone who can't speak Japanese answers their phone with a "moshi-moshi." I interviewed applicants for EFL teaching positions who used Japanese liberally in their interviews (with 2 native English speakers)--why? I think it's because it has become second nature to them and they no longer even know how to express the ideas using English words. Millions of English speakers get along somehow without using the word "genki" or keitai.

Still having said that, I am guilty of using some Japanese words, but I had to stop that once I got back to the States. In my opinion use as many Japanese words as you like when you are talking to your friends--whatever, but when you are talking to people you don't know (or in a job interview!), in formal situations, don't do it!

As for gaijin, I use it to refer to myself or my friends when talking to my close friends. I would not use it in front of someone I didn't know well. I would feel offended for some reason if someone who didn't know me well used it or a Japanese person used it. In that sense a bit like the "N" word--you have to be an insider to use it.
That's my 2 cents
Sherri

[Captain Onigiri]

Confucius said, "Isn't it a joy to make practical use of something you learned." There is always a point in learning a language where you only know 1 in a hundred words/1 in twenty words/1 in three words. So someone uses a common Japanese word in a setting where the person communicated with doesn't say "Genka-what?" As teachers, shouldn't any learning be encouraged? Isn't one of the most intimidating aspects of learning a language is finding a safe place to try out using that language. Wouldn't an internet forum for teachers of language be one of those safe places?

[Henry_Cowell]

Whenever I'm with other foreigners who speak a certain L2 language, we mix words from that L2 into English. It isn't rocket science and it doesn't have to be grammatically or morphologically 'true' to the L2. It's just fun -- and sometimes it's simply natural. And when English-speaking Japanese get together, you can bet that they throw a few English words into their conversation, making those words temporarily Japanese words.

PAULH, why do you let it bother you so much? People do it everywhere. And it's also how languages borrow and adapt words into their own lexicon. Would you have scolded the first Englishmen who started using the French words menu and regime in their daily conversation, just because French was their L2? Would you have yelled at them when they made those words plural by adding /z/??

[markle]

A different angle, I've had some of the same experience in Thailand and using Thai, and now I am following a similar pattern here. I use Japanese words when I'm using both English and Thai (with my wife), especially words that have their own meaning in a Japanese context. "onsen' comes to mind, now it can be translated as hot spring or spa but both terms fail to capture the whole experience like 'onsen'.
Pluralization occurs when words enter the lexicon that are inherently countable nouns.
For me the 'gaijin' thing is bit of a non-issue. Again Thai's have the word 'falang' that only the incredibly uptight get offended by, granted it doesn't have the faint discriminatory connotations but is used by locals and foreiners alike. Part of the problem arises form the fact that there are few words that really capture the meaning the way gaijin and falang do, in general what do you call a non-Japanese person? Foreigner is problematic, Westerner is to vague, European too specific and I think I'd punch anyone who called me an alien.
Lets not forget that English (like Japanese) is a language that has absorbed and incorporated an amazingly huge variety of language into the venucular from Gaelic, Latin, French, Arabic, Native American to Indian, and that's before you start delving into the regional varieties.

If you think gaijin using Japanese while speaking is bad just wait til you come across the ones that use Kanji in writing.