Job Discussion Forums

[Dragon]

Do you think this ESL job market will last indefinently in China like Korea and Japan and the Middle East etc...

[Roger]

Hard to say! China is fast transforming itself into a more sophisticated nation. However, people cling to their box thinking, superiority complex and they prefer someone in authority to tell them what to do.
The current English learning craze is government-instigated. When China was admitted to the WTO, its rulers decided that all Chinese ought to study English, and it became a compulsory subject. Previously, Russian was the first L2, albeit an elective. I know some Chinese who speak fluent Russian.

How long is it likely to last? Let me add an anecdote from my experience teaching in Shenzhen in the middle of the 1990's. Shenzhen is right on the border with Hong Kong, thus until June, 1997 it was located on China's international boundary, and anybody going to HK was "lucky because he can travel abroad!"
Prior to the handover, the Shenzhen government implemented a strict policy whereby people with higher education, preferably with good English skills were allowed to migrate to this city. This was good for many training centres, and I made a lot of money teaching on my own there.
After Hong Kong's return to Chinese rule, nothing changed in Shenzhen, CHinese still had to be "lucky" to go to Hong Kong even though it was now under the same central government as the rest of the country. The interest in English suddenly plummeted. I was lucky to get a new job in Hong Kong, and later on the mainland. Meanwhile, the same English craze that the rest of China has been experiencing for the past three years has gripped Shenzhen too.

I would say that it will end in around 2008, when the Olympics have been staged. But this is guess. Who knows if Chinese by that time realise that learning English is not merely something to do with trade and the WTO, but also a skill that opens the world, new vistas and friendships? Maybe, maybe...

[scot47]

Hard to say. No crystal balls around. I am old enough to remember when jobs in post-colonial Africa were plentiful and well-paid. I also remember when Iran was a huge market for EFL teachers.

Do not invest too much in an EFL future ! Stay flexible !!!!

[ashamanmat]

Roger, can you tell me a little bit more about Shenzhen, E-Mail me at [email protected], I plan to teach there in a few weeks and was wondering if it was easy for me to go visit Hong Kong every week or so if I wanted to. What the people there are like, just anything you can tell me would be great.

[Roger]

Hello, ashamanmat,
I will try to e-mail you but I am not sure if I can read your e-mail correctly (is there a space between da and mat?).
Meanwhile,
Yes, of course, if you are legal you can easily cross the border to HK. Good news - since January 27, the border at HUANGGANG is now open 24 hours a day (but it involves a few hassles getting there as there is no round-the-clock bus service from downtown Shenzhen).
It should be easy for you to secure a job in Shenzhen. I didn't like the town but I did enjoy socialising in nearby Shekou. It is just some 15 kms from Shenzhen.
Salaries are relatively good (but for your trips to HK you will need to make a bit extra as shopping and bar-hopping there will set you back considerably!).
I knew a Swiss businessman living in Shenzhen due to high rentals in HK.
From Lowu (HK) Luohu (SZ) checkpoint, it takes less than one hour to reach Kowloon by train, but customs and passport inspection will take another one hour per trip!
Good luck,
e-mail me direct if you have specific questions:
[email protected]

[MW]

Well Roger -

I think I have finally figured out when and how your thinking went wrong on the ESL future in China issue.

Correct me if I am wrong - you think the ESL push began after China joined the WTO and think it will peter out at the end of the olympics in 2008, right?

1862 was the year the first ESL school was opened in China, and it was a central government school with ten students.

23 years ago ESL became a major area of study in China. ESL in public universities and colleges began in ernest in 1980 with the explosion in private ESL schools commencing in 1990. It was the end of the Chinese Cultural Revolution and the fall of the evil Russian empire that drove China towards ESL and not the WTO which came much later.

However, there is no single government document embracing ESL in China. It has simply been encouraged to develop on its own.

The only government official to make public comments tying ESL to 2008 was the former Beijing Mayor who is now history due to his alleged mishandling of SARS (it was actually the deputy mayor's jurisdiction but he was a Jiang loyalist and two Jiang loyalists could not be scrapped) and the unfortunate fact that he was the sacrificial lamb as quid pro quo for the sacking of the Minister of Health who was a Jiang loyalist.

No other government official ties ESL to the 2008 olympics for any reason whatsoever.

Maybe looking with western eyes it appears that ESL is waning in your area but that is not the case throughout China.

In the last year alone 22 private English schools opened in one little rural town and each school has 100 to 200 paying students. Some will be inefficient and close while some will succeed.

Others will open and still others will close just as in all business sectors.
But the industry is here to stay for a while longer.

If and when the China market draws to a close, something else will open up. That is the nature of the beast.

[senor boogie woogie]

I think that interestin English study will last in China for many years, if not forever.

Why? Because English is the international language for business. Parents want their children to learn English in hopes that knowing the language will get their children better jobs.I have had parents see me in the shops or market and force their children to talk to me. The kid and I are both on the spot usually and we break up and quickly as possible.

Learning English is a step up in Chinese life. This may or may not be true. I have seen many hotel clerks, McDonalds employees and the like have a decent grasp of the language. However, these might be good jobs in China, I have yet to meet a rickshaw driver or a ditch digger say anything remotely English to me. I have also met multi millionaires in China who had as much English knowledge as the man with the shovel.

Finally, when I was in Korea, I went to the bank to withdraw some money, and I knew very little Korean. No one in the bank except one man knew any English, THE GUARD!

SENOR

[Roger]

Interesting replies, mates, and I can't find anything wrong with either.
Still, it must be borne in mind that without the government telling the CHinese they will have a brighter future if they study English, the average Chinese person would not care one iota!
If Chinese individuals learn English it is certainly not so they can converse with foreign visitors. Their prime motivation is to go overseas themselves. Now that's what old Mao must have been dreading - the whole country emigrating. Is there a notice that says "Last person please turn off the light?"
The CHinese have for ages been dreaming of a "better" life, whatever that means. Unlike Westerners or Muslims who put that off until they turn their toes up, the Chinese want to experience wealth in the here and now. In this pursuit they are more dogged and single-minded than any people I have been with, including the Greeks, Israelis, Russians and others.
For most, there is one formidable stumbling block to realising this dream: Government hurdles. SOme of these have come down recently, for insance the obtention of a passport is now easier, a lot easier than it used to. However, most still cannot travel on their own as their own government restricts travelling by restricting the number of countries where it allows its own citizens to travel to a handful of nations, including Germany but not Britain, Australia but not Canada, etc.
Although Chinese will not always tell you that they are dreaming of emigrating, I guess the majority still do. One reason why I think so is because most of us male ESL teachers know how easy targets we are for Chinese ladies, and why!

But this is only diversion. Now, why should those who do not wish to leave China study English? I claimed it is because their government has decided it is in their interest. The current English craze has erupted in earnest when the PRC was formally admitted to the WTO. Suddenly, state-owned businwesses and even private ones began hiring expat teachers to train their staff. Not to mention the proliferation of fly-by-night training centres. The most important feature is that English is being promoted with the active help from public institutions. Even private businesses pay for their staff to improve their English because the learning of this supposedly international language is seen as opening new market for Chinese businesses.
I taught English at hotels, a lawyers' office, electronic appliances factories and even at kindergartens (staff training!), and never, never did the students have to take the initative to learn English. It was always decided at the top.

I do agree that English is there to stay, but I am more than sure that the current high expat number will not be required beyond 2008.
When every province has found out that its CEO's, hotel directors, policemen, bus drivers, taxi drivers still are as incapable as before to speak any coherent English sentence they will realise that they have been throwing the money out of the windows!

[MW]

A recent survey, the results of which will be formally published in June 2003, of 1,000 1st, 2nd and 3rd tier English major college students in China shows that only 1% are looking forward to going overseas. The remainder are convinced that learning English will assist them in getting a better job in China or, at the very least, improve their social status.

The majority of them are not looking to go overseas as Roger suggests.

[noyb]

Only 1%? Oh, yes, a sampling of 1,000 is highly scientific.

Well that certainly explains day-long lines of visa seekers at almost any Western consulate.

It also explains the record number of registrants for IELTS / TOEFL / GRE / GMAT etc ... .

Or maybe it's the same survey which said not long ago that there were only 14 SARS cases in Beijing??

[MW]

It Is Much Easier To Criticise Than To Create!

Creating animosity for oneself is not an art, it is just unnecessary.

[noyb]

Sure. I long for the day when I can create psycho-babble, mumbo jumbo, uselessness. You are the expert. Please teach me.

Still fumbling with that chapter on capitalizations?