Job Discussion Forums

Yabanci · Joined: 23 May 2006 Posts: 30 Location: China

Hi,

I could use some advice about honesty or saving face.

The issue is that I'm looking for a job for one semester. An experienced teacher advised me to sign a one-year contract and just quit after the first semester. This is not my style at all since I put high value on honesty. I don't want to sign anything that I do not intend to keep.

For me it is about honesty, for him it is about a 'polite face-saving story'.

Am I naive or is sincerity still being appreciated?

saint57 · Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject:

There should be no problem. Six month contracts are common in China. Just don't expect full airfare.

HunanForeignGuy · Joined: 05 Jan 2006 Posts: 989 Location: Shanghai, PRC

Gee...this is so similar to a situation that I just encountered...

A person I know from a German-speaking country emailed me to request help in getting a job, which of course I did.

Two jobs were to offered to this gentleman. One job was in a middle-school with a horrific name, a pay scale of RMB 4,000 per month, a one-time travel allowance of RMB 500, and absolutely no benefits whatsoever. The living conditions in this middle school bordered on the horrific, if not the outright primitive. In this middle school, the poor teacher paid for the visa, the medical examination, and just about everything else. But they did offer the gentleman a six-month contract, although the school is known far-and-wide for farming out teachers to other schools once they arrive there. They just can't keep FTs and I wonder why.

With the help of another friend, this German-speaking country gentlemen friend of mine was offered a job much closer to RMB 5,000 per month, in a middle school in Northern China, where the apartment was quite nice and recently renovated, and where the school picked up all the expenses completely, including visa, medical expenses, visa run, etc. The glitch was that the contract was one-year because in that province of the country, the local authorities insist on one-year contracts. This middle school has a good name.

The school was insisting upon a one-year contract because they told my friend outright that the local government required it for numerous reasons. I explained to my friend that all SAFEA contracts have a three-month bail-out here and that could be an option.

I am not familiar with the OPs actual story nor the details but in the case of this person from the German-speaking country, he was determined to bend China to his way of doing things. Hyper-blunt, hyper-honest in his opinion, hyper-direct. I tried on numerous occasions to explain to this gentleman that while those were marvelous attributes in the West, there was this little thing called "face" in China and these attributes might not be perceived in the same manner as they are in the West, to say the least.

Nonetheless, the gentleman persisted in being more direct than a Swiss Army knife and was determined to bend China to his way of thinking.

I don't if this relates at all to the OP's original post, but I am sure that some of the more experienced China hands around here might explain to the OP how business is conducted around here in an indirect manner, and what passes for a lie in the West is often a polite way of saving face here.

Anyway, to finish the story of the gentleman in question, I simply shyed away from any further contact because his hyper-direct, hyper-blunt, hyper-honest manner just kind off was hard to deal for the Chinese to whom I introduced him.

China is a great and wonderful country and as I am sure that the experienced posters around here will tell the OP, face is of a prima facie value.

All the best to the OP in his or her China endeavours.

tofuman · Joined: 02 Jul 2004 Posts: 937

OP,
The Chinese have a very different value system than many Western people whose sense of right and wrong has been shaped by Judaeo/Christian values. Truth is not highly regarded by many, perhaps most, Chinese; consequently, you can expect problems and should plan on having them.

If you allow yourself to be drawn in to their web of deceit, you are going to have even more problems. A troubled conscience is a burden in any country.

Truth is an affront to people who are more comfortable with lies, it threatens them. I'm not referring to only existential truth here. Simple matters in daily life are often resolved by lies among many Chinese. If you tell the truth and use it to cope with life, it challenges those who don't.

I eschew certain types ofalcohol. I have been screamed at, insulted, and harassed in public by "hosts" who are offended that I won't drink with them. I do not drink most commonly consumed alcoholic beverages. My friends understand that. So it is with truth. I tell it. If others don't care for it, that is their problem.

Chinese lack knowledge of the value of Truth, so I sympathize with them. If I can avoid it, I will not be drawn down into the moral decay of every kind that pollutes this society. It has many wonderful characteristics. Deceit is not one of them.

Yu · Joined: 06 Mar 2003 Posts: 1219 Location: Shanghai

Dont put such a high value on honesty in China.
That and being nice to people does not really get you very far.
Same these ultruistic traits for people who earn this sort of respect.

grwit · Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 329 Location: Dagobah

I agree with tufuman. I pride myself on my honesty. I refuse to become a compulsive liar to fit in with chinese society. My honesty has never really caused any problems for me here and my Boss praises me for it. Sure the chinese lie to me all the time but mostly it is not about anything serious that would make me want to leave this country.

Heres a good one... Today in class i reveived 4 notes from students who were abscent. Every note had the same excuse. "Sorry I cannot come to class today, there was a problem at home" Marking the role I noticed another absent student and her friend gave me a verbal excuse for her. And guess what..... There was a problem at her home too! Sometimes it makes me laugh with the stupidity of their lies!

As for your question... Be honest. Tell them you only want a 6month contract with the option to extend it to 12 months if you like it there. Make it sound like you are thinking of staying for 12 months even if you are not. But only sign for 6 months.

Yabanci · Joined: 23 May 2006 Posts: 30 Location: China

Thanks for your replies. It strenghtens my decision to be honest even though it might be harder to find a job.

@HFG: remarkably similar story but the big difference with my story is that the experienced teacher approached me and that eases my conscience.

@tofuman: OMG, I don't consume any alcohol at all. Maybe I should reconsider my decision to go to China ha ha

HunanForeignGuy · Joined: 05 Jan 2006 Posts: 989 Location: Shanghai, PRC

stil · Joined: 23 Jun 2003 Posts: 259 Location: Hunan

I agree with HunanForeignGuy but of course you will have to live with what you do. I just have no problem with it. In the west I adhere to the western version of honesty in China I use the their version. I neither judge it nor try to understand it. I just try to learn and use it. A little like my calculus classes in University.

Hendahu · Joined: 27 Apr 2006 Posts: 69

No good deed goes unpunished. Being honest is always a great policy. What I have found it that sometime the smartest thing to do I play your cards close to the vest. Any information you offer can be used adversely against you. There is a great saying from the Godfather II that may help here. Keep your firends close, and keep your eneimies closer. I am not saying the Chinese are the enemy, just that it is an adversarial situation with employers at times.

grwit · Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 329 Location: Dagobah

Last year 1 FT used the face saving lie to break his contract after 6 months. It left a sour taste in our bosses mouth and from then on he treated us differently.

Sure the guy who left may think that he did the right thing but it made the lives of the rest of us who stayed more difficult. Our boss treated us as though we were going to do the same at any given time!

johnchina · Joined: 24 Apr 2006 Posts: 816

In my experience, in China, it's less about whether you lie or tell the truth, but more about whether you tell the Chinese person what they want/expect to hear. Also bear in mind that Chinese people usually find it acceptable for others not to tell them the 'whole truth'.

Yu makes the very good point that being nice doesn't get you very far. The Chinese generally find 'nice' to equate with 'soft'. And when Chinese people call you 'a friend of China' or 'someone who understands Chinese culture', you know you're *&@$ed!!!